Leadership, and lack thereof

[Khyber53]

2 minutes ago, AggieLean said:

Hollywood? Lol

So, what makes Luke or TD leaders and Cam not one?

Do you think Luke and TD lead the defense?

[thefuzz]

3 minutes ago, AggieLean said:

Hollywood? Lol

So, what makes Luke or TD leaders and Cam not one?

Do you think that Cam is a great leader?

[AggieLean]

Just now, Khyber53 said:

Do you think Luke and TD lead the defense?

I do, just like I think Cam, Olsen, and Kalil lead on offense.

So, when our defense struggled in 2011, 2012, 2016, and allowed huge leads to evaporate in 2015, were they not leaders then? I ask that, because it's clear you and the OP are saying there's not leaders on offense due to their struggles. 

[AggieLean]

1 minute ago, thefuzz said:

Do you think that Cam is a great leader?

Yep. I think anyone who gives up their body, never throws teammates under the bus, spends offseason after offseason working his butt off to be in shape for the upcoming season, and is currently our entire offense is a leader. You've had players in the locker room say he's a leader. So, when you say he's not one and the players say he is, who should I believe? Why is he not a leader to you? 

[AggieLean]

7 minutes ago, CRA said:

Offense IMO has always lacked an real identity. 

A mean Cam goes out there and is Cam.  That isn't' really an identity.   No one on the O actually rallies the guys, barks, and gets emotional either.  Haven't really had that since Jake Delhomme (pre Tommy John injury).  89 could give some emotional spark in play and behavior (we don't have that either). 

But Cam is always seen on the sideline rallying his OL. He's constantly bigging up KB and Funch, trying to boost their confidence and have them realize their true potential, and finally you have players on the team say the man leads them. Lol so it's funny to me, y'all are questioning his leadership and I'm trying to find out if you have all that evidence, then what is it that you all are seeing that doesn't make him a leader?

[thefuzz]

Just now, AggieLean said:

Yep. I think anyone who gives up their body, never throws teammates under the bus, spends offseason after offseason working his butt off to be in shape for the upcoming season, and is currently our entire offense is a leader. You've had players in the locker room say he's a leader. So, when you say he's not one and the players say he is, who should I believe? Why is he not a leader to you? 

I asked if you think he's a great leader, not just a leader.

Cam doesn't throw teammates under the bus, and he doesn't make excuses like Big Ben, however I don't envision Cam as a great leader.

Great Player:  Yup.

Great Teammate:  Yup.

Generation Talent:  Yup.

Our entire offense:  Yup.

Great Leader: Not in my eyes.

 

You keep going back to Cam though, when I'm talking about the entire offense and the entire defense.  I do have more faith in the "leaders" on the defensive side of the ball, and while I think Cam is the leader of the offense, along with Olsen, I don't think either of them are great leaders.

[Khyber53]

1 minute ago, AggieLean said:

I do, just like I think Cam, Olsen, and Kalil lead on offense.

So, when our defense struggled in 2011, 2012, 2016, and allowed huge leads to evaporate in 2015, were they not leaders then? I ask that, because it's clear you and the OP are saying there's not leaders on offense due to their struggles. 

Out there, TD and Luke are in charge (when Luke is playing), hands down. They run that show, they hold the others accountable and you can see them working it. The results show. Again and again.

Olsen is on the sidelines (at least late in the last game), Kalil is injured and is probably looking at the end of his career. And Cam, well, at least he isn't sulking on the end of the bench with the towel over his head anymore. That leaves Cam out there to lead, like a QB should. He has been underwhelming at that task so far.

[thefuzz]

And for all that's holy, there are enough Cam bashing and Cam praising threads....I'm just trying to have a discussion about the overall leadership structure within the Panthers....which I believe is surely lacking right now.

[AggieLean]

3 minutes ago, thefuzz said:

I asked if you think he's a great leader, not just a leader.

Cam doesn't throw teammates under the bus, and he doesn't make excuses like Big Ben, however I don't envision Cam as a great leader.

Great Player:  Yup.

Great Teammate:  Yup.

Generation Talent:  Yup.

Our entire offense:  Yup.

Great Leader: Not in my eyes.

 

You keep going back to Cam though, when I'm talking about the entire offense and the entire defense.  I do have more faith in the "leaders" on the defensive side of the ball, and while I think Cam is the leader of the offense, along with Olsen, I don't think either of them are great leaders.

I do think Cam is a great leader, and I think that because his teammates says so. 

So, what makes TD and Luke great leaders?

[AggieLean]

4 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

Out there, TD and Luke are in charge (when Luke is playing), hands down. They run that show, they hold the others accountable and you can see them working it. The results show. Again and again.

Olsen is on the sidelines (at least late in the last game), Kalil is injured and is probably looking at the end of his career. And Cam, well, at least he isn't sulking on the end of the bench with the towel over his head anymore. That leaves Cam out there to lead, like a QB should. He has been underwhelming at that task so far.

What has made him underwhelming? 

Do you think JR is a great leader? He should be the ultimate leader of the team, right? 

[Khyber53]

5 minutes ago, AggieLean said:

Yep. I think anyone who gives up their body, never throws teammates under the bus, spends offseason after offseason working his butt off to be in shape for the upcoming season, and is currently our entire offense is a leader. You've had players in the locker room say he's a leader. So, when you say he's not one and the players say he is, who should I believe? Why is he not a leader to you? 

I understand the man crush thing, it's okay. He is an amazing football player. He's had a rocket arm and great running skills. But we are entering that phase of his career where he doesn't want to be running as much and doesn't have the fluidity he once did to avoid tackles. And the surgery to his shoulder obviously has taken some of his passing ability away. That happens to all great QBs -- injuries happen and they all have the scars to prove it by the time they reach the years that Cam has posted -- but they have to find that something else. Leadership. Reading the defense. That go for broke instinct that plays out. 

I'm not seeing that in Cam right now and I think he is really struggling to find the power in the second act of his career. Sadly he didn't have an offseason to work it out and so we're all having to sit through it. I sure hope he finds his mojo and a way to lead a team not just when they are winning but when they are getting the dog water kicked out of them. 

Right now he's pretty disappointing to his fans. And he's a toothless tiger to the rest of the league.

[grimesgoat]

2 minutes ago, AggieLean said:

Hollywood? Lol

So, what makes Luke or TD leaders and Cam not one?

Aggie - you have asked this several times on this thread and everyone has ducked it. My opinion is that Luke and TD give off a team first vibe.  Everyone can rally around this.  They are also not afraid to yell at someone and get in their grill if necessary.  If someone is not paying attention or super-focused out there, one of those two will make sure it doesn't happen again.

I do not know who will do this on the offensive side.  If someone runs the wrong route, will Cam get in their face and yell at them?  If so, I haven't seen it.

The other thing I worry about is the relationship between Cam and his offensive line.  When we score a rare touchdown, Cam seems to always take time to draw attention to himself.  Superman pose, a new dance, a ball giveaway, a slow home run trot back to the bench, etc.  The grunts that are busting their ass and sacrificing their bodies are never part of the celebration, nor does he thank them for the effort.  I can't imagine this motivates anyone out there.  If I was a teammate, this would get pretty old after 7 years.  Cam is immensely talented, however he comes across as selfish at times.  Selfish is the worst thing you can be in a team sport - especially from the quarterback.

[thefuzz]

1 minute ago, AggieLean said:

I do think Cam is a great leader, and I think that because his teammates says so. 

So, what makes TD and Luke great leaders?

Where did I infer that they were?

I said I feel more comfortable with the defensive meeting rooms than the offensive side...hence me not speaking of the defense in the OP.

 

 

[TheBiggerCat]

If we want a change the only way to do this is empty seats in BOA. That is the only thing JR responds too.