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For the Fire Rivera Group

DaveThePanther2008

By DaveThePanther2008,
in Carolina Panthers

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Mr. Scot Grand Master

Mr. Scot

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, stankowalski said:

I honestly think once Samuel and Moore get up to speed and implemented more in the offense we're going to score a lot of points.  At least that's what I'm hoping for because we can't expect the defense to bail us out this year.

Hoping so as well. Agree on the defense...sadly.

To your earlier point, I definitely think Turner is an upgrade. We have issues, but OC isn't one of them.

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Toomers Mentor

Toomers

Posted
Posted
24 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Well, if we went by the standard some have set, Rivera would have been gone after two years as well. You could argue that Kelly was fired too soon, though I don't really think his system was going to work in the NFL. worth noting though that his firing probably had as much to do with internal politics as it did his record.

Heck, remember Jon Gruden's quarterback carousel in Tampa? That's a big example of what I call the lottery ticket approach. Buy a lottery ticket, and if it's not an instant winner throw it away. If the next one is in an instant winter, throw that one away too and buy more.

That's a stupid approach to building a winning football team.

Whether we're talking about a quarterback, a coordinator or head coach, you have to be smarter than that. If you're not willing to allow for transition time, don't make the move. Of course, the status quo might not be the best thing in the world either.

It's all a matter of judgment.

I've said it before. If you commit to firing a coach, you'd better firmly believe that he's not the guy. you don't necessarily have to have a predetermined replacement in mind when you do that (in fact, I'd be against it) but you do have to be absolutely convinced that you can do better and willing to commit the process of finding someone better.

I don't believe the Eagles did that when they hired Kelly. They fell for the hype, and it cost 'em. that's absolutely something I wouldn't want to see us do.

The good news on that front if it does come to that: Tepper would be following the Steeler method. The Steelers believe they're hiring a coach for the next 20 years, so they're very careful making sure they got the right guy.

That's probably one reason why the prospect of hiring a new coach doesn't scare me as much as it does others.

  All very fair. I’ll admit. I’m more patient than most.    

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stankowalski Newbie

stankowalski

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Hoping so as well. Agree on the defense...sadly.

To your earlier point, I definitely think Turner is an upgrade. We have issues, but OC isn't one of them.

I think he probably is too but I remember people blaming the wasted timeouts on Shula and using that in their arguments as to why he should be fired...only to still have the same problem this year.  I don't think Shula was as bad as he's made out to be and I don't think Rivera is as bad as he's made out to be.  And to be clear I do think Rivera sometimes makes bad decisions...but so do a lot of other coaches.  I think that  people on this board tend to overstate the talent level on this team and their expectations are based on that flawed evaluation.  Other than Cam and Luke we don't have elite talent on this team, IMO.

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Mr. Scot Grand Master

Mr. Scot

Posted
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7 minutes ago, Toomers said:

  All very fair. I’ll admit. I’m more patient than most.    

Like I said, I'm not on the firing bandwagon. If we have a lousy rest of the season, ask me again.

Reality: We've got people who wouldn't want to fire anybody even if we had multiple years of losing seasons (Hurney still had defenders in 2012) and people who'll scream for everybody's head if we give up a field goal.

Ya gotta find a way to be reasonable.

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Toomers Mentor

Toomers

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19 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

It didn't "technically" work. It just plain worked. The Eagles have a Super Bowl trophy. Andy Reid still doesn't, and might not ever. 

I'll take what Philly did over waiting another ten years on a current coach only to have him never win it all.

That’s sounds closer to the “lottery ticket” approach you have discussed. That’s one scenario with a “gap” in between. Once again....Is this our best case scenario? Just hire til we get it right? And hope we’re the Eagles and not the Browns, Jets, Lions etc...

  it’s a huge risk is all I’m saying. More likely to fail than succeed. So proceeding with some caution before leaving scorched Earth might be an, at least, logical choice.

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Toomers Mentor

Toomers

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Like I said, I'm not on the firing bandwagon. If we have a lousy rest of the season, ask me again.

Reality: We've got people who wouldn't want to fire anybody even if we had multiple years of losing seasons (Hurney still had defenders in 2012) and people who'll scream for everybody's head if we give up a field goal.

Ya gotta find a way to be reasonable.

We’re on top of the same fence. Just if we fell off we would land in different yards...lol

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Mr. Scot Grand Master

Mr. Scot

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1 minute ago, Toomers said:

That’s sounds closer to the “lottery ticket” approach you have discussed. That’s one scenario with a “gap” in between. Once again....Is this our best case scenario? Just hire til we get it right? And hope we’re the Eagles and not the Browns, Jets, Lions etc...

  it’s a huge risk is all I’m saying. More likely to fail than succeed. So proceeding with some caution before leaving scorched Earth might be an, at least, logical choice.

Definitely not. It's just an example.

It absolutely is a huge risk. So is the status quo if things don't change.

Whatever we do, we've gotta be wise.

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Mr. Scot Grand Master

Mr. Scot

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Toomers said:

We’re on top of the same fence. Just if we fell off we would land in different yards...lol

That's what I find funny.

I'm not pushing to fire Rivera, but to hear some of the responses I get you'd think I was leading the charge :)

I guess you can't discuss options without people assuming one way or the other.

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billionairemonk Newbie

billionairemonk

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

That's what I find funny.

I'm not pushing to fire Rivera, but to hear some of the responses I get you'd think I was leading the charge :)

I guess you can't discuss options without people assuming one way or the other.

many people are binary thinkers.  take at look a the current political discourse in America as an example.  but reality isn't that simple, it is a spectrum

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Toomers Mentor

Toomers

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

That's what I find funny.

I'm not pushing to fire Rivera, but to hear some of the responses I get you'd think I was leading the charge :)

I guess you can't discuss options without people assuming one way or the other.

Same here. I agree with many “issues” people have with Rivera. 

    It’s because people with an agenda assume everyone has one too. And we are left with “because I said so” theories

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Mr. Scot Grand Master

Mr. Scot

Posted
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2 minutes ago, Toomers said:

Same here. I agree with many “issues” people have with Rivera. 

    It’s because people with an agenda assume everyone has one too. And we are left with “because I said so” theories

Agreed. That's why I often post questions without giving my opinion up front. 

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Mr. Scot Grand Master

Mr. Scot

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30 minutes ago, stankowalski said:

I think he probably is too but I remember people blaming the wasted timeouts on Shula and using that in their arguments as to why he should be fired...only to still have the same problem this year.  I don't think Shula was as bad as he's made out to be and I don't think Rivera is as bad as he's made out to be.  And to be clear I do think Rivera sometimes makes bad decisions...but so do a lot of other coaches.  I think that  people on this board tend to overstate the talent level on this team and their expectations are based on that flawed evaluation.  Other than Cam and Luke we don't have elite talent on this team, IMO.

I've spent a lot more time over the past few years looking at combos.

Some folks look at Cam Newton 2017 and Cam Newton 2018 and assume they're the same player. They're really not. Cam 2017 was coached by Mike Shula and Ken Dorsey. Cam 2018 is coached by Norv and Scott Turner. Mostly the same? Maybe, but there are also definite differences between the two.

For my part, I think "Turner Cam" it's still something of a work in process. We haven't really seen what he's going to be yet.

I would add though that I'm concerned about that shoulder.

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