Incredible... Wait, I meant "very good"

[bobowilson]

54 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

If you recall Terrell McClain being a star for any team, you don't recall. McClain stuck around as depth on a couple of different teams. Evan Mathis did okay.

of course, invoking the name of Terrell McClain also brings up Sione Fua.

Evan Mathis made multiple pro bowls, he didnt just do 'okay'

 

[bobowilson]

In the mid to late rounds

Marty Hurney acquired 2 Hall of Famers (Steve Smith, Olsen), 4 Pro Bowlers (Norman, Hardy, Kalil, Mathis), and another guy that was a borderline pro bowler in Charles Johnson

if anyone else had that record, I can't imagine their irrational fan base would be crying about he's terrible outside the 1st round;  you can keep repeating the names of Clausen, Edwards, Gaulden, but it doesn't change the fact his bust rate in the mid rounds is no higher than any other general manager 

And in recent years, Dennis Daley, Donte Jackson, Ian Thomas, Christian Miller, and Haynes look very promising

[DeAngelo Beason]

33 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

And the several others that completely washed out of the league within two or three years?

(The overwhelming majority of the 2010 to 2012 draft classes, for example)

We can ignore all the good and only look at the bad for every single team in the league if we'd like.  

We can also only focus on all the good that happened and paint an entirely different picture.  The point is Hurney's average is right in line with about every other GM in the league.  

Now I'm not forgiving the clusterfug of the early 2010s where he got in the habit of trading away first round picks for second round picks, but I think we all know he's matured quite a bit since then.  All I'm saying is Hurney 2.0 is a million times better than his former self, and he is right in line with your average GM in the league.  It is ignorant and childish (not surprising with this fanbase) to say he has not been doing an acceptable job.

[Snake]

5 hours ago, Squirrel said:

That's is were I'm seeing this going.  Main reason I think Cam is done here.  The big money will be spent on the offensive and defensive line first.  We will have a QB that will be a game manager for the first few years. 

It's possible, who knows how it pans out. We are not privy to all the analyst of players and situations so it will be very interesting. 

[Mr. Scot]

2 minutes ago, DeAngelo Beason said:

We can ignore all the good and only look at the bad for every single team in the league if we'd like.  

We can also only focus on all the good that happened and paint an entirely different picture.  The point is Hurney's average is right in line with about every other GM in the league.  

Now I'm not forgiving the clusterfug of the early 2010s where he got in the habit of trading away first round picks for second round picks, but I think we all know he's matured quite a bit since then.  All I'm saying is Hurney 2.0 is a million times better than his former self, and he is right in line with your average GM in the league.  It is ignorant and childish (not surprising with this fanbase) to say he has not been doing an acceptable job.

We don't have to just ignore one side. You absolutely should look at the whole picture.

The problem with the big picture is that there's more bad than good.

That's true even if you look solely at the drafting, but you shouldn't. You have to look at the entire roster building, and that's where the record comes in, and it ain't good either.

Has has been referenced many a time, the last time Marty Hurney was involved in building a roster that had a winning season was 2008. And his overall record on that front is 3 out of 14.

That's just not good enough.

[bobowilson]

53 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

And the several others that completely washed out of the league within two or three years?

(The overwhelming majority of the 2010 to 2012 draft classes, for example)

Find me literally one long time general manager whose mid to late round picks didn't mostly wash out of the league in a few years

Just one

 

[DeAngelo Beason]

41 minutes ago, 1of10Charnatives said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evan_Mathis

Mathis was good enough for 94 career starts, none of which were for us even though we drafted him, 2 pro bowls and an all pro nod. If you’re making the argument that we draft players and then don’t develop them despite their talent, in my mind he is your prime example but to be fair I think all NFL teams have some of this going on. If it isn’t endemic I don’t get too worked up about it.

If Tepper really wants to get into analytics deep, I think an intriguing metric would be to develop a baseline for measuring achievement by players elsewhere after being cut by the team that drafted them. You could then measure your own team against this baseline as a tool for evaluating whether your coaching staff was recognizing and developing talent better or worse than the league as a whole.

I 100% agree with you that all NFL teams have quite a bit of just this going on.  That statement solidifies my argument that Hurney is batting a pretty "average" average.  The people flying off the handle around here talking about how much he sucks are being lazy with their analysis of what's going on with this team.  There is a ton of talent that continues to underperform on this team.  Poor scheme, poor player development.  People think a new GM is going to solve all the problems, but it absolutely isn't.

I love your second point about analyzing how players do on new teams after being drafted by others.

[Mr. Scot]

Just now, bobowilson said:

Find me literally one long time general manager whose mid to late round picks didn't mostly wash out of the league in a few years

Just one

Take a look at how solid some of the recent Saints draft have been.

You're missing the point though. What's most important is overall roster building. You have to have the combination of drafting, free agency, trades, all of it.

Marty just isn't good enough at the big picture.

[DeAngelo Beason]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

We don't have to just ignore one side. You absolutely should look at the whole picture.

The problem with the big picture is that there's more bad than good.

That's true even if you look solely at the drafting, but you shouldn't. You have to look at the entire roster building, and that's where the record comes in, and it ain't good either.

Has has been referenced many a time, the last time Marty Hurney was involved in building a roster that had a winning season was 2008. And his overall record on that front is 3 out of 14.

That's just not good enough.

The Panthers had a pretty darn good record with David Gettlemen as their GM.  

Are you attributing the success of the Panthers during that stretch to David Gettlemen?  I'm going to assume no, because you're a seemingly intelligent person.  David Gettlemen didn't wave a wand and make Josh Norman and Luke Kuechly pro bowlers.  He also didn't draft either of those players. 

By the same token, Marty Hurney is not responsible for the success of those players.  That would be the coach and his system.  A GMs job is to add talented players, which I feel Hurney 2.0 has done a good job of doing.  The coach's job is to get the most out of that talent, which I believe Rivera did for a while, but has failed to do recently for whatever reason.

[1of10Charnatives]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Take a look at how solid some of the recent Saints draft have been.

You're missing the point though. What's most important is overall roster building. You have to have the combination of drafting, free agency, trades, all of it.

Marty just isn't good enough at the big picture.

Exactly. 

It doesn’t matter how good you are at drafting over the long term if poor negotiating and cap management means you don’t effectively retain the right talent at the right price.

[Mr. Scot]

1 minute ago, 1of10Charnatives said:

Exactly. 

It doesn’t matter how good you are at drafting over the long term if poor negotiating and cap management means you don’t effectively retain the right talent at the right price.

Yep. Which is why Tepper talking about putting Marty in a role best suited to his skills makes perfect sense.

(even if his skills aren't "incredible", just "very good")

[Waldo]

I wonder what Tepper thinks of Hurneys 2.0's contract work? Is he happy with Palardis play and the hype before the season? It's kinda weird that a guy like Bradbury is playing good enough for an extension but there isnt a peep about it.

Time will tell. I'm waiting till after the draft to see how this shakes down. Ron wasn't getting fired and yet he was. Tepper has earned some goodwill and belief that he can get it done. And this 2.0 is still BS, same guy minus JR. Whoopdie freaking doo. Let's all celibrate and uphold mediocrity.

[frash.exe]

2 hours ago, Waldo said:

I wonder what Tepper thinks of Hurneys 2.0's contract work? Is he happy with Palardis play and the hype before the season? It's kinda weird that a guy like Bradbury is playing good enough for an extension but there isnt a peep about it.

Time will tell. I'm waiting till after the draft to see how this shakes down. Ron wasn't getting fired and yet he was. Tepper has earned some goodwill and belief that he can get it done. And this 2.0 is still BS, same guy minus JR. Whoopdie freaking doo. Let's all celibrate and uphold mediocrity.

you remember around 2007-2009 when ppl were putting the argument forth that hurney was great at contracts 

today it’s “he’s a great talent evaluator”

he needs to go if for no other reason than this forum’s grasp of reality so they can stop formulating stupid arguments to talk themselves into the concept that he’s actually any good.

[Waldo]

23 minutes ago, frash.exe said:

you remember around 2007-2009 when ppl were putting the argument forth that hurney was great at contracts 

today it’s “he’s a great talent evaluator”

he needs to go if for no other reason than this forum’s grasp of reality so they can stop formulating stupid arguments to talk themselves into the concept that he’s actually any good.

It would certainly be a mercy after what we Panthers fans have been through.