Veterans beware

[stbugs]

41 minutes ago, Wes21 said:

I realize calling it dead money prior to getting rid of the player is inaccurate, but it helps to envision what is really going on.  What he was paid in bonus money is dead and gone, and is going to be on the books no matter what you do next.  Your car analogy needs some tweaking.  Let me paint what's really going on:

You spend $30,000 to repair/upgrade your car.  That's a sunken cost, its over and done with.  Whether you choose to pay the car note on it for the next year or choose to get rid of it is up to you.  But paying the car note is introducing new money into the equation.  When people say "it costs the same to use the car or get rid of it," that is inaccurate.  In the case of KK, it costs an additional $12.5M to use him for the 2020 season.   

 

Lol at calling me the rude guy. I like that. People see dead cap and act like it’s the worst thing in the world when all bonus money is dead money. It gets paid day 1 (or later for roster/option/restructure bonuses) when it happens and then that dead money gets spread out.

Psychologically, people seem to think differ about dead cap once it is called that but its just money that has already been paid out and hasn’t been accounted for yet. Some people still in here equate it to “paying”’ someone for not playing and think we are actually cutting a check to Matt Kalil this year.

You can keep calling me the rude guy, but I do appreciate that you get it. At the end of the day, the dead money/prorated bonus/dead cap is meaningless. It’s already gone. Also, for Short the decision is $13.125M to be exact. He’s got some workout/roster bonuses. We have to decide if he’s worth the extra money. I don’t think he’s close to worth it especially since I haven’t seen 1 person defend keeping him for 2021. If we deem him worth it then I think we truly think we can be a playoff team and I don’t see that at all. So many rookies and new guys. I like a lot of them in the future, but they aren’t going to be great this year.

[Wes21]

5 minutes ago, stbugs said:

Lol at calling me the rude guy. I like that. People see dead cap and act like it’s the worst thing in the world when all bonus money is dead money. It gets paid day 1 (or later for roster/option/restructure bonuses) when it happens and then that dead money gets spread out.

Psychologically, people seem to think differ about dead cap once it is called that but its just money that has already been paid out and hasn’t been accounted for yet. Some people still in here equate it to “paying”’ someone for not playing and think we are actually cutting a check to Matt Kalil this year.

You can keep calling me the rude guy, but I do appreciate that you get it. At the end of the day, the dead money/prorated bonus/dead cap is meaningless. It’s already gone. Also, for Short the decision is $13.125M to be exact. He’s got some workout/roster bonuses. We have to decide if he’s worth the extra money. I don’t think he’s close to worth it especially since I haven’t seen 1 person defend keeping him for 2021. If we deem him worth it then I think we truly think we can be a playoff team and I don’t see that at all. So many rookies and new guys. I like a lot of them in the future, but they aren’t going to be great this year.

You called him an idiot 5 times in a single post

[stbugs]

2 hours ago, panthers55 said:

Actually dead cap really doesn't apply until he is cut or traded. Yes there are costs to keep the player which is what you are paying him in salary, bonus and guarantees.  But you are getting a player who is contributing. Dead cap really refers to money you owe toward the salary cap but you are getting nothing in return.  That is like saying that still paying off a car I got rid of  a year ago is the same as counting what I still owe on a car that I am still driving and using. They aren't.  So counting all guaranteed money owed as dead cap space isn't really accurate or the best way to account for it. You are essentially counting any future guaranteed money as dead cap using that concept. Since most potential dead cap space doesn't actually become dead cap space, to account for it as such makes little sense. Short is making a premium this year and needs to produce big time. But cutting him at this point would be a stupid move and any argument suggesting great cost savings is very short sighted at best. So yeah I agree with you we should keep him at least this year 

He’s right and I don’t think you get it fully. Dead cap is already there once the bonus gets paid to the player. Call it sunk costs, prorated bonuses, dead money or dead cap, it’s all the same and just a label. Short has $6M in dead money this year, it just gets called part of his cap hit. $13M in new money, $6M in accounting tricks. Whether he is on the team or not that $6M hits the books and the other $11M hits next year (or this year if they decide to cut without the post June 1st designation.

If you think we should only keep him for 2020, then you are being very short sighted. I want to save the $13M for the future. Our future isn’t this year so you are wasting our future rollover for a guy who’s contributed next to nothing the past two years.

[stbugs]

1 minute ago, Wes21 said:

You called him an idiot 5 times in a single post

Did you read the prior posts? I didn’t call him an idiot until he did that first. I said idiot that many times as a point since he did it first. Just like @panthers55 said stupid as well. People who lead with that tend to be incorrect but I tend to fire back the same term when they do that to me.

[stbugs]

On 5/23/2020 at 8:05 PM, MadHatter said:

On 5/23/2020 at 5:07 PM, stbugs said:

What purpose? Do you think that somehow he makes us a playoff team? Is he truly worth paying $13M to this year? At the end of the day, he hits our cap for an extra $13M if he’s on the team this year.

His cap hit is just over $19m....the dead cap hit if we cut now him is $17m.  So he costs us an additional $2m to keep him.  Only a complete idiot would cut him now.

@Wes21 I don’t mean to call him out again, but he posted an incorrect statement that it only costs us $2M to keep him and then called me an idiot. That’s why I repeated it a bunch of times. I’m sure I can come off as arrogant, but one of my flaws is being bothered by incorrect statements that spread more bad posts. It is what it is, but I try not to be an ass until someone does that and I’m more than happy to throw it back.

[stbugs]

This is why I want to save the $13M and roll it over till we are competitive:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/29196114/2020-nfl-season-projections-chances-make-super-bowl-win-division-land-top-draft-spot-more

You can disagree with it but look at the odds. Two of the other teams in our division are preseason top 8 and Atlanta has owned us for years. If we were in the NFC North where it could be wide open, maybe I’d think it was worth a try. According to those rankings only the NFC West is a better division top 3. Heck they think the Cardinals are better than us as well.

[panthers55]

2 hours ago, Wes21 said:

I realize calling it dead money prior to getting rid of the player is inaccurate, but it helps to envision what is really going on.  What he was paid in bonus money is dead and gone, and is going to be on the books no matter what you do next.  Your car analogy needs some tweaking.  Let me paint what's really going on:

You spend $30,000 to repair/upgrade your car.  That's a sunken cost, its over and done with.  Whether you choose to pay the car note on it for the next year or choose to get rid of it is up to you.  But paying the car note is introducing new money into the equation.  When people say "it costs the same to use the car or get rid of it," that is inaccurate.  In the case of KK, it costs an additional $12.5M to use him for the 2020 season.   

 

You example is off as well. If you have sunk money into it, then it does matter whether you keep it or not. If you sink that much money into a car and them dump it, you are out the money. If you keep the car and it runs,  then you haven't wasted the money, it was just part of the cost of keeping and using the car. One is the cost of owning and driving the car both upfront and ongoing.  The other is wasted money you got nothing out of.  You are right that the cost of the having him is the difference between the guaranteed money we have already paid him (incorrectly referred to as dead cap space) and the non-guaranteed part of his salary which is what we are actually paying him. Honestly I think he is worth 12 million if we actually platy football.

[panthers55]

1 hour ago, stbugs said:

He’s right and I don’t think you get it fully. Dead cap is already there once the bonus gets paid to the player. Call it sunk costs, prorated bonuses, dead money or dead cap, it’s all the same and just a label. Short has $6M in dead money this year, it just gets called part of his cap hit. $13M in new money, $6M in accounting tricks. Whether he is on the team or not that $6M hits the books and the other $11M hits next year (or this year if they decide to cut without the post June 1st designation.

If you think we should only keep him for 2020, then you are being very short sighted. I want to save the $13M for the future. Our future isn’t this year so you are wasting our future rollover for a guy who’s contributed next to nothing the past two years.

No, I get it but as long as they are on the roster it isn't dead cap, it is guaranteed money already paid. There is a big difference. One is accounted for as we go and it gets smaller over time. Once it is dead cap it doesn't get smaller and there is nothing to do but eat it. I get what you are trying to say, but it is not the way anyone accounts for it. All you are doing by saying that all guaranteed money could potentially become for dead cap by accounting for potential future risk. I would prefer that term which is accurate and offers common definitions to work with instead of confusing things with wrong terms and definitions to serve you own definition.

[Wes21]

1 hour ago, panthers55 said:

You example is off as well. If you have sunk money into it, then it does matter whether you keep it or not. If you sink that much money into a car and them dump it, you are out the money. If you keep the car and it runs,  then you haven't wasted the money, it was just part of the cost of keeping and using the car. One is the cost of owning and driving the car both upfront and ongoing.  The other is wasted money you got nothing out of.  You are right that the cost of the having him is the difference between the guaranteed money we have already paid him (incorrectly referred to as dead cap space) and the non-guaranteed part of his salary which is what we are actually paying him. Honestly I think he is worth 12 million if we actually platy football.

You are incorrect about the car example, but you seem to understand that its roughly a $12M decision to keep KK for the 2020 season.

1 hour ago, panthers55 said:

No, I get it but as long as they are on the roster it isn't dead cap, it is guaranteed money already paid. There is a big difference. One is accounted for as we go and it gets smaller over time. Once it is dead cap it doesn't get smaller and there is nothing to do but eat it. I get what you are trying to say, but it is not the way anyone accounts for it. All you are doing by saying that all guaranteed money could potentially become for dead cap by accounting for potential future risk. I would prefer that term which is accurate and offers common definitions to work with instead of confusing things with wrong terms and definitions to serve you own definition.

In this post it appears you are still having some trouble grasping how it works. 

[MMA]

On 5/22/2020 at 8:53 PM, Popsickle said:

Bye MMA; let’s save @Jeremy Igo some money now. 

I’m making him money

[panthers55]

3 hours ago, Wes21 said:

You are incorrect about the car example, but you seem to understand that its roughly a $12M decision to keep KK for the 2020 season.

In this post it appears you are still having some trouble grasping how it works. 

Trust there is no confusion understanding it.  There does appear to be differences in communicating our thoughts. For example in saying it doesn't get smaller I am referring to the reality that guranteed contract money changes as it is accounted for  over the life of the contract but once it becomes designated as  dead cap space it doesn't change except that you can spread out the hit over 2 years for post June 1 cuts. So while the guranteed money  can up or down depending on how you structure the contract, as long as he is on the roster it isn't considered dead cap. It was only when you and the rude guy started  changing the definition of what dead cap means to include any guaranteed money owed as ubiquitous to dead cap space that the confusion was created. So yes I understand that guaranteed money can turn into dead cap space but no one says they are the same and it is not accurate to call it that until the player is gone.  You are really looking at potential liability which may or not be an issue. 

[MadHatter]

10 hours ago, stbugs said:

@Wes21 I don’t mean to call him out again, but he posted an incorrect statement that it only costs us $2M to keep him and then called me an idiot. That’s why I repeated it a bunch of times. I’m sure I can come off as arrogant, but one of my flaws is being bothered by incorrect statements that spread more bad posts. It is what it is, but I try not to be an ass until someone does that and I’m more than happy to throw it back.

It’s all good...I called you an idiot...you called me an idiot...and you were the right and I was wrong....the. We move on.

just a normal day on The Hudfle.

[Wes21]

1 hour ago, panthers55 said:

Trust there is no confusion understanding it.  There does appear to be differences in communicating our thoughts. For example in saying it doesn't get smaller I am referring to the reality that guranteed contract money changes as it is accounted for  over the life of the contract but once it becomes designated as  dead cap space it doesn't change except that you can spread out the hit over 2 years for post June 1 cuts. So while the guranteed money  can up or down depending on how you structure the contract, as long as he is on the roster it isn't considered dead cap. It was only when you and the rude guy started  changing the definition of what dead cap means to include any guaranteed money owed as ubiquitous to dead cap space that the confusion was created. So yes I understand that guaranteed money can turn into dead cap space but no one says they are the same and it is not accurate to call it that until the player is gone.  You are really looking at potential liability which may or not be an issue. 

You are correct that people only refer to dead cap space when referring to a player that is no longer with the team.  Its literally the definition of it.  What I'm saying is, to fully understand the cap and not lose sight of what's really going on, its easier to simply envision all of a players signing bonus money as dead cap space.  We can't use the money, its already paid out, and its not going to "go down."  In that light we have at least $17M of "dead cap money" for KK right now.  That's for past liabilities already paid to him, not future guarantees.  Our 2020 portion of the "dead money" for KK is being listed as $6.3M.  I have no idea where you are getting the idea that it could "go down" if we have KK on the team.  It will be AT LEAST $6.3M, and can only go up from there.  And the total liability is at least $17M, and can only go up from there.

 

[panthers55]

1 hour ago, Wes21 said:

You are correct that people only refer to dead cap space when referring to a player that is no longer with the team.  Its literally the definition of it.  What I'm saying is, to fully understand the cap and not lose sight of what's really going on, its easier to simply envision all of a players signing bonus money as dead cap space.  We can't use the money, its already paid out, and its not going to "go down."  In that light we have at least $17M of "dead cap money" for KK right now.  That's for past liabilities already paid to him, not future guarantees.  Our 2020 portion of the "dead money" for KK is being listed as $6.3M.  I have no idea where you are getting the idea that it could "go down" if we have KK on the team.  It will be AT LEAST $6.3M, and can only go up from there.  And the total liability is at least $17M, and can only go up from there.

 

Instead of dead cap space I call it what it is which is future cap space already allocated. Using any other term confuses what for many is already tough to understand.  Let me explain how it goes down. He is going to play this year no doubt. While I don't think we are going to win a ton of games, we will be competitive and I think better than expected. So once we keep him, the 6 million in potential dead cap space will be a non issue and his dead cap hit will go down in 2021 when his cap hit goes up and his dead cap hit would be manageable. Or if he has a good 2020 his contract could be restructured and that would change the numbers significantly. So what will his dead cap hit be in 2020?  0 dollars because he won't be cut.  It is only 6.3 million if he is cut and he won't be.  That is the reason why looking at all guaranteed money as dead cap space makes little sense. Both from a tracking point of view as well as from a predictive/ management strategy.