Justin Fields 61 yard rushing touchdown

[MasterAwesome]

11 hours ago, Jackie Lee said:

 

I dunno about this one...if you were to separate your fandom from the equation and just evaluate this objectively, would you truly argue that this is a super compelling compilation video of Fields getting screwed over beyond what every single QB goes through?  As a fan of entertaining football, I'm excited for Fields' development and trajectory and watching him play, but this video seems egregiously homeristic lol.

The very first clip is of a 3rd & 16 drop that would have been blown up for a 4-5 yard gain.  They were in field goal range so you could maybe argue the impact of that drop....if the Bears didn't go on to make the FG anyways on the next play (they did).  So this is "literally irrefutable" evidence of an entirely inconsequential drop.

There's another similar type play of a 4th & 16 drop that clearly would have been short of the sticks as the guy was in the process of getting tackled simultaneously as the catch was attempting to be made.

Then there are two clips of muffed punts which, sure you can argue that they take away a QB's number of opportunities to put up points, but still a pretty big stretch to include in a compilation of drops.  You might as well make a 45-minute compilation video of every 1st down the defense gives up because those are also limiting the QB's opportunities.

If you trim the fat above, you're left with maybe a one minute clip of legitimate drops including a few damn impressive throws.  But again, that goes back to my original question of putting this within the context of what every QB has to endure.  I feel like it'd be pretty damn easy to come up with a one minute compilation video of receiver drops for every QB in the NFL.  Hell, the statistics I looked up puts Justin Fields tied at 18th-23rd for most drops in the league despite playing at least one more game than all of the QBs above him except for 3.

[Varking]

1 hour ago, MasterAwesome said:

I dunno about this one...if you were to separate your fandom from the equation and just evaluate this objectively, would you truly argue that this is a super compelling compilation video of Fields getting screwed over beyond what every single QB goes through?  As a fan of entertaining football, I'm excited for Fields' development and trajectory and watching him play, but this video seems egregiously homeristic lol.

The very first clip is of a 3rd & 16 drop that would have been blown up for a 4-5 yard gain.  They were in field goal range so you could maybe argue the impact of that drop....if the Bears didn't go on to make the FG anyways on the next play (they did).  So this is "literally irrefutable" evidence of an entirely inconsequential drop.

There's another similar type play of a 4th & 16 drop that clearly would have been short of the sticks as the guy was in the process of getting tackled simultaneously as the catch was attempting to be made.

Then there are two clips of muffed punts which, sure you can argue that they take away a QB's number of opportunities to put up points, but still a pretty big stretch to include in a compilation of drops.  You might as well make a 45-minute compilation video of every 1st down the defense gives up because those are also limiting the QB's opportunities.

If you trim the fat above, you're left with maybe a one minute clip of legitimate drops including a few damn impressive throws.  But again, that goes back to my original question of putting this within the context of what every QB has to endure.  I feel like it'd be pretty damn easy to come up with a one minute compilation video of receiver drops for every QB in the NFL.  Hell, the statistics I looked up puts Justin Fields tied at 18th-23rd for most drops in the league despite playing at least one more game than all of the QBs above him except for 3.

18th to 23rd in drops for the year for total drops or for drop percent?

Fields is currently tied for 13th in the NFL for touchdown PASSES. 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Varking

[TheCasillas]

11 minutes ago, Varking said:

Fields is currently tied for 13th in the NFL for touchdown PASSES. 

So is Marcus Mariota... and Dalton is 1 behind them both with 3 less games.... Not a good hill to die on. 

[Varking]

2 minutes ago, TheCasillas said:

So is Marcus Mariota... and Dalton is 1 behind them both with 3 less games.... Not a good hill to die on. 

It’s lacking context. Again, Fields has done the bulk of this damage the last three games. The arrow is majorly pointing UP. And despite that he’s close to being in the top 10. 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Varking

[TheCasillas]

2 minutes ago, Varking said:

It’s lacking context. Again, Fields has done the bulk of this damage the last three games. The arrow is majorly pointing UP. And despite that he’s close to being in the top 10. 

oh i didnt know we were allowed to pick and choose which games we want to rank players on. In that case I pick Jared Goff over the last four weeks bc he has thrown 12 TDs to 3 INTs.

[Varking]

4 minutes ago, TheCasillas said:

oh i didnt know we were allowed to pick and choose which games we want to rank players on. In that case I pick Jared Goff over the last four weeks bc he has thrown 12 TDs to 3 INTs.

Great for him. Those are terrific numbers. Is this supposed to negate Fields clearly trending up?

[ForJimmy]

8 minutes ago, TheCasillas said:

oh i didnt know we were allowed to pick and choose which games we want to rank players on. In that case I pick Jared Goff over the last four weeks bc he has thrown 12 TDs to 3 INTs.

When you are talking about rookies/2nd years QBs you usually look at how they are trending.  He had a bad rookie year and struggled the first quarter of the season, but it looks like something is starting to click with him and he is making a bit of a jump.  It's all about context...  I don't understand why you are so against this.  Fields is playing at a higher level lately.  Has his solidified himself at THE guy?  No, but he is looking like he COULD be something special IF he keeps progressing.  

[TheCasillas]

 

1 minute ago, ForJimmy said:

When you are talking about rookies/2nd years QBs you usually look at how they are trending.  He had a bad rookie year and struggled the first quarter of the season, but it looks like something is starting to click with him and he is making a bit of a jump.  It's all about context...  I don't understand why you are so against this.  Fields is playing at a higher level lately.  Has his solidified himself at THE guy?  No, but he is looking like he COULD be something special IF he keeps progressing.  

I've said in this thread that Fields has the potential, I am not arguing against that. I am simply stating that he still struggles as a passer, and that cant be forgiven because he can run at an elite level. You can look back through this thread and this has been my statement the entire time.

[ForJimmy]

32 minutes ago, Varking said:

18th to 23rd in drops for the year for total drops or for drop percent?

Fields is currently tied for 13th in the NFL for touchdown PASSES. 

That's the key.  He isn't asked to throw the ball that much at all.  I'm willing to bet he is towards bottom of the league in pass attempts and with that his team is still in the mid range for dropped passes.  Percentage of passes dropped would probably be towards the top end which is frustrating, especially for a young QB trying to find some rhythm.  

[MasterAwesome]

8 minutes ago, Varking said:

18th to 23rd in drops for the year for total drops or for drop percent?

Fields is currently tied for 13th in the NFL for touchdown PASSES. 

I was looking at total drops but I just checked for drop percentage and he's 18th there.  And that's only considering eligible QBs, like Baker is on there at 10th worst but PJ Walker isn't even listed - I looked PJ up manually and he has a 6.7% drop rate which would put him at 4th worst in the entire league.  Yet how many times have people in here jumped to PJ's defense about receivers dropping passes?  How many compilation videos are out there about dropped PJ passes?  It just seems, statistically speaking at least, that the dropped passes narrative is way overblown for Fields.  Other elements of his surrounding talent like his o-line protection, wide receiver separation, etc. might be legitimate but those are more difficult to find data on.  And maybe the guy who made that video should have invested his time making a compilation video of Fields' o-line giving up immediate pressure or something if that were the case.

Touchdown passes has nothing to do with the video I was discussing in my post.  I'm not making some grand judgment about Fields as a QB, I'm simply saying that video I just watched was extremely unconvincing as a defense of Fields.  I can't imagine anyone who is truly on the fence about Fields, walking away with a more favorable impression of him after watching that video.  I think it did a disservice to him more than anything cause you're kinda left thinking "wait that's it?".  Hand-selecting clips that were completely inconsequential like the 3rd and 16 and 4th and 16 drops, as well as padding the run time to get to 2 minutes by including Special Teams clips of muffed punts is what makes it come off as a bit desperate and biased.  If someone made a compilation video of Sam Darnold and trying to convince us that he was a great QB getting screwed over by his team, and then proceeded to include a clip of his running back dropping a checkdown on 4th & 30 as 5 defenders converged on him, I'd roll my eyes lol.  Hyperbolic example I know, and I'm not trying to compare Fields to Darnold (like I said I'm excited about Fields' development as of late), but it's the same sentiment with regards to that video.

[ForJimmy]

Just now, TheCasillas said:

 

I've said in this thread that Fields has the potential, I am not arguing against that. I am simply stating that he still struggles as a passer, and that cant be forgiven because he can run at an elite level. You can look back through this thread and this has been my statement the entire time.

I'd agree he is still not a finished product in the passing game.  His passing numbers have been trending up lately (TD/INT and rating), but they are still "hiding" his passing struggles to a degree my limiting attempts and calling more runs.  His real test will be next season providing they surround him with talent due to all that cap space they have.  

[ForJimmy]

1 minute ago, MasterAwesome said:

I was looking at total drops but I just checked for drop percentage and he's 18th there.  And that's only considering eligible QBs, like Baker is on there at 10th worst but PJ Walker isn't even listed - I looked PJ up manually and he has a 6.7% drop rate which would put him at 4th worst in the entire league.  Yet how many times have people in here jumped to PJ's defense about receivers dropping passes?  How many compilation videos are out there about dropped PJ passes?  It just seems, statistically speaking at least, that the dropped passes narrative is way overblown for Fields.  Other elements of his surrounding talent like his o-line protection, wide receiver separation, etc. might be legitimate but those are more difficult to find data on.  And maybe the guy who made that video should have invested his time making a compilation video of Fields' o-line giving up immediate pressure or something if that were the case.

Touchdown passes has nothing to do with the video I was discussing in my post.  I'm not making some grand judgment about Fields as a QB, I'm simply saying that video I just watched was extremely unconvincing as a defense of Fields.  I can't imagine anyone who is truly on the fence about Fields, walking away with a more favorable impression of him after watching that video.  I think it did a disservice to him more than anything cause you're kinda left thinking "wait that's it?".  Hand-selecting clips that were completely inconsequential like the 3rd and 16 and 4th and 16 drops, as well as padding the run time to get to 2 minutes by including Special Teams clips of muffed punts is what makes it come off as a bit desperate and biased.  If someone made a compilation video of Sam Darnold and trying to convince us that he was a great QB getting screwed over by his team, and then proceeded to include a clip of his running back dropping a checkdown on 4th & 30 as 5 defenders converged on him, I'd roll my eyes lol.  Hyperbolic example I know, and I'm not trying to compare Fields to Darnold (like I said I'm excited about Fields' development as of late), but it's the same sentiment with regards to that video.

Not saying you are wrong, but can you post the source for the drop %.  It's not adding up in my head because Chicago is barely passing the ball right now.  If they are middle of the league in total drops with fewer attempts that would make me believe the % would be higher.  I have a feeling it might have some random QBs that haven't started or played many games this year on that list...  Just trying to make sense of it mathematically.  

[TheCasillas]

4 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

I'd agree he is still not a finished product in the passing game.  His passing numbers have been trending up lately (TD/INT and rating), but they are still "hiding" his passing struggles to a degree my limiting attempts and calling more runs.  His real test will be next season providing they surround him with talent due to all that cap space they have.  

I think his ceiling is Colin Kaepernick and his floor RG3. 

[MasterAwesome]

1 minute ago, ForJimmy said:

Not saying you are wrong, but can you post the source for the drop %.  It's not adding up in my head because Chicago is barely passing the ball right now.  If they are middle of the league in total drops with fewer attempts that would make me believe the % would be higher.  I have a feeling it might have some random QBs that haven't started or played many games this year on that list...  Just trying to make sense of it mathematically.  

Yeah on the surface it sounds odd, but you'd have to account for injured QBs and their backups who have played less games (and thrown less passes) than Fields who will kinda counteract the fact that Fields throws less passes per game, since Fields has started every game so far.  Baker is one of those - also guys like Ryan Tannehill, Cooper Rush, Zach Wilson, and Joe Flacco.  Flacco is the only one who you could maybe question due to that small sample size of 3 games (although he threw an insane 155 passes over those 3 games lol); the others have played at least 6 games.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2022/passing_advanced.htm