Official Steelers at Panthers GameDay Thread

[SmokinwithWilly]

7 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

No offense to you as I know what you are saying and where you are going with it but seriously fug PJ Walker and majorly fug sam darnold.   Back ups or not we have to do better then that.  Darnold is dog poo and walker needs to hit the xfl.   

 

Whether its fitt or whoever and with a new coaching staff I just simply cannot envision a scenario where we dont take a qb in the first or trade up to 2 to get one.    At some point you just have to do it instead of kicking the can down the road.  Will that qb fail, probably but you have to at least try and with a new coaching staff the timeline matches up nicely

Darnold could be a functional backup. But it would take an OC that is actually capable of game planning to what he can do. He's not someone I would want starting every game, but having him for an occasional fill in, why not for the right money. Am I saying I don't want better? Absolutely not. As a QB 2/3 going into camp with a new HC and creative OC, I'd be ok with it and let the chips fall where they may. 

[45catfan]

2 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

No offense to you as I know what you are saying and where you are going with it but seriously fug PJ Walker and majorly fug sam darnold.   Back ups or not we have to do better then that.  Darnold is dog poo and walker needs to hit the xfl.   

 

Whether its fitt or whoever and with a new coaching staff I just simply cannot envision a scenario where we dont take a qb in the first or trade up to 2 to get one.    At some point you just have to do it instead of kicking the can down the road.  Will that qb fail, probably but you have to at least try and with a new coaching staff the timeline matches up nicely

Geno has resurrected his career with decent parts around him.   We can get a decent FA to steady the ship until the right time to draft a first round QB.  Reaching is not good.

Now, let's say Richardson falls to Seattle and they want him, do you think they are going to let Geno Smith hold that back?  Same here, if we sign the likes of Minshew, Mason Rudolph, Jacoby Brissett, or re-sign Darnold.  Teddy was truly the one we thought would be a bridge QB, the Mayfield and Darnold experiments was about winning now.  I'm good going back to a bridge QB scenario, for now, and filling out the rest of the offensive side of the ball with legit weapons.

I still refer to the Steelers and the Big Ben model. They were a complete team that just needed a franchise QB.  We are a shell of a team looking for a savior.   Which one of those scenarios is likely to play out well?

[mrcompletely11]

2 minutes ago, 45catfan said:

Geno has resurrected his career with decent parts around him.   We can get a decent FA to steady the ship until the right time to draft a first round QB.  Reaching is not good.

Now, let's say Richardson falls to Seattle and they want him, do you think they are going to let Geno Smith hold that back?  Same here, if we sign the likes of Minshew, Mason Rudolph, Jacoby Brissett, or re-sign Darnold.  Teddy was truly the one we thought would be a bridge QB, the Mayfield and Darnold experiments was about winning now.  I'm good going back to a bridge QB scenario, for now, and filling out the rest of the offensive side of the ball with legit weapons.

I still refer to the Steelers and the Big Ben model. They were a complete team that just needed a franchise QB.  We are a shell of a team looking for a savior.   Which one of those scenarios is likely to play out well?

Smith is the aberration and not the norm.   Out of your list I would go Brissett-minshew 2 or 3 year deal and then draft a guy in the first.

 

To your second point, as I have said 2x today now, I think a qb like Stroud wins the nfcs next year.  I think he is the perfect game manager type that is smart enough to play as a rookie and do reasonably well

[45catfan]

Just now, mrcompletely11 said:

Smith is the aberration and not the norm.   Out of your list I would go Brissett-minshew 2 or 3 year deal and then draft a guy in the first.

 

To your second point, as I have said 2x today now, I think a qb like Stroud wins the nfcs next year.  I think he is the perfect game manager type that is smart enough to play as a rookie and do reasonably well

We will not be able to get Stroud, not unless the tank is back on. I'm not believing the mocks that have Levis going ahead of Stroud.  The Texans will get QB1, period, end of story.  So you think QB2 will fall all the way down to us?  I have also stated today that Fitts should be fired for trading up.  There's no generational QB in this draft to justify it. Again, I get the desperation at QB, but at this point it makes little sense to draft a QB sitting where we are now on the draft board.

[SmokinwithWilly]

12 minutes ago, 45catfan said:

We will not be able to get Stroud, not unless the tank is back on. I'm not believing the mocks that have Levis going ahead of Stroud.  The Texans will get QB1, period, end of story.  So you think QB2 will fall all the way down to us?  I have also stated today that Fitts should be fired for trading up.  There's no generational QB in this draft to justify it. Again, I get the desperation at QB, but at this point it makes little sense to draft a QB sitting where we are now on the draft board.

There doesn't have to be a generational guy to trade up. Those are very rare. It's about finding a QB who can be developed and turned into an above average QB because that's about the best you can realistically expect. If we traded 3 1sts and ended up with the next Allen or Mahomes, should he be fired because neither of those were considered generational talents. The right system, the right coach, the right offense make such a huge difference it's not on the QB alone. 

[45catfan]

10 minutes ago, SmokinwithWilly said:

There doesn't have to be a generational guy to trade up. Those are very rare. It's about finding a QB who can be developed and turned into an above average QB because that's about the best you can realistically expect. If we traded 3 1sts and ended up with the next Allen or Mahomes, should he be fired because neither of those were considered generational talents. The right system, the right coach, the right offense make such a huge difference it's not on the QB alone. 

This are a typical results, correct?  You cherry picked one of, if not the prime, exceptions to the rule.  Not being a douche, but should I post the results of the 99% of times this didn't work?

Edited December 19, 2022 by 45catfan

[SmokinwithWilly]

37 minutes ago, 45catfan said:

This are a typical results, correct?  You cherry picked one of, if not the prime, exceptions to the rule.  Not being a douche, but should I post the results of the 99% of times this didn't work?

How about Lamar Jackson or Jalen Hurts? It doesn't matter if there is a generational talent at QB. Picks are irrelevant if you get it right. If you give up 3 1sts and get your QB for the next 15, you win. To say you should fire a guy because he trades up because you don't think there is a "generational talent" is asinine. 

[45catfan]

1 minute ago, SmokinwithWilly said:

How about Lamar Jackson or Jalen Hurts? It doesn't matter if there is a generational talent at QB. Picks are irrelevant if you get it right. If you give up 3 1sts and get your QB for the next 15, you win. To say you should fire a guy because he trades up because you don't think there is a "generational talent" is asinine. 

Lamar and Jalen were flyer picks. I hope you understand that.  What's asinine is giving up 3 1sts rounders in this QB class. "You win" is easy to say as a fan, but the busts and middling QBs are WAAAAAY more common and sets back a franchise in the real world.  Sorry, but you dismiss the franchise QB drafting process as trivial.  Simply move up, grab a guy, and presto! Problem solved!  Dude, if it were only that easy.
There's a reason why that 10-ish area of the first round to the mid-20s are largely void of QBs in most drafts...teams know if there isn't a a top 10 QB worth taking, then hold off until the end of the round, top of round 2, for a flyer pick.

[SmokinwithWilly]

1 hour ago, 45catfan said:

Lamar and Jalen were flyer picks. I hope you understand that.  What's asinine is giving up 3 1sts rounders in this QB class. "You win" is easy to say as a fan, but the busts and middling QBs are WAAAAAY more common and sets back a franchise in the real world.  Sorry, but you dismiss the franchise QB drafting process as trivial.  Simply move up, grab a guy, and presto! Problem solved!  Dude, if it were only that easy.
There's a reason why that 10-ish area of the first round to the mid-20s are largely void of QBs in most drafts...teams know if there isn't a a top 10 QB worth taking, then hold off until the end of the round, top of round 2, for a flyer pick.

You're missing the point. I'm not saying getting it right is easy. You're saying there's no QB worthy of giving up picks in this draft class. That's not a certainty any more than trading 3 1sts will net you a franchise QB. Being able to identify talent, determine if he will fit into the system you are building/built, and acquiring that talent are key factors. I gave 4 examples of guys who weren't considered generational QBs coming out of college, but now are considered franchise cornerstones in the last 5 years. Every one of those guys would be the 1st pick of a draft and a GM would be congratulated for getting one for 3 1sts. 3 or 4 years from now you'll be able to say there were or were not any generational talents at QB in this draft. Right now, it's too early to make that call and it's just stupid to say that you know how good their careers will be before they play one snap in the NFL. 

[45catfan]

2 hours ago, SmokinwithWilly said:

You're missing the point. I'm not saying getting it right is easy. You're saying there's no QB worthy of giving up picks in this draft class. That's not a certainty any more than trading 3 1sts will net you a franchise QB. Being able to identify talent, determine if he will fit into the system you are building/built, and acquiring that talent are key factors. I gave 4 examples of guys who weren't considered generational QBs coming out of college, but now are considered franchise cornerstones in the last 5 years. Every one of those guys would be the 1st pick of a draft and a GM would be congratulated for getting one for 3 1sts. 3 or 4 years from now you'll be able to say there were or were not any generational talents at QB in this draft. Right now, it's too early to make that call and it's just stupid to say that you know how good their careers will be before they play one snap in the NFL. 

Great 4 examples.  Cherry picking.  Let me rattle off a list that's not cherry picking: Rosen, Wentz, Winston, Mariota, Bortles, Manziel, Manuel, RGIII, Tannehill, Locker, Gabbert, Ponder, Sanchez, Freeman and so on and so on and so on and the list could go on forever.

You're good with a swing and a miss. I'm not, especially giving up 3 first rounders and saying 'at least we tried.'

Also, what system?  We don't even have a staff in place for next year.  We are able to identify QBs for a system that we don't even have yet?  Again, better wait until next year.  Heck, even the Fields guys are lamenting an ill-fit with the Bears and the lack of talent.  So is it Fields or is the Bears' coaching staff and/or organization failing to coach him and put pieces around him?

Let the staff have a year to get their feet wet and then decide what QB they want moving forward.  Then if they want to move up for a QB, that may be more palatable.  Don't worry, we still will picking relatively high, not that using future draft capital bothers you much even if we actually do well.

 

[SmokinwithWilly]

6 hours ago, 45catfan said:

This are a typical results, correct?  You cherry picked one of, if not the prime, exceptions to the rule.  Not being a douche, but should I post the results of the 99% of times this didn't work?

Please post the 396 QBs taken in the last 5 years of the draft are the rule that make up that 99%. I gave 4 that are the exceptions. It should be easy for you to list off the almost 400. I'll wait. 

[45catfan]

1 hour ago, SmokinwithWilly said:

Please post the 396 QBs taken in the last 5 years of the draft are the rule that make up that 99%. I gave 4 that are the exceptions. It should be easy for you to list off the almost 400. I'll wait. 

Lol, I posted the partial list of a looooooooooooooong list of busts, but hey, I guess it's a little less than 99%.  The point you are arguing the semantics of the math settles my case.   Have a great evening sir.

[SmokinwithWilly]

4 minutes ago, 45catfan said:

Lol, I posted the partial list of a looooooooooooooong list of busts, but hey, I guess it's a little less than 99%.  The point you are arguing the semantics of the math settles my case.   Have a great evening sir.

There's not a long list of busts in the past 5 years that massively overshadows those that have succeeded. 10 years wont see a ratio like that either. That wasnt my argument, that was yours. It wasnt a good one. Too many factors go into the success of a QB other than whether or not they're a generational talent. 

If a new coach, OC and Fitts or whoever is GM decide that there is a QB worthy of trading to acquire, then they should go for it. They should also be held accountable for that decision once it plays out. If at that time, they bust on a trade for a QB, then it's time to decide if they need to stay or go. But saying someone should be fired for making a trade before that player even has a chance to play a down makes no sense. 

And you're not going to get a good HC by telling then they're stuck with Darnold, PJ and MC or whoever we manage to sign and can't make a trade to get a QB if they see one they like. If we don't have the right evaluators and coaches in place before we draft it won't matter. 

[45catfan]

2 minutes ago, SmokinwithWilly said:

There's not a long list of busts in the past 5 years that massively overshadows those that have succeeded. 10 years wont see a ratio like that either. That wasnt my argument, that was yours. It wasnt a good one. Too many factors go into the success of a QB other than whether or not they're a generational talent. 

If a new coach, OC and Fitts or whoever is GM decide that there is a QB worthy of trading to acquire, then they should go for it. They should also be held accountable for that decision once it plays out. If at that time, they bust on a trade for a QB, then it's time to decide if they need to stay or go. But saying someone should be fired for making a trade before that player even has a chance to play a down makes no sense. 

And you're not going to get a good HC by telling then they're stuck with Darnold, PJ and MC or whoever we manage to sign and can't make a trade to get a QB if they see one they like. If we don't have the right evaluators and coaches in place before we draft it won't matter. 

Right, because 5 years and under are still on their rookie contract.  It's hard to call them busts...yet.  They are still having the tires kicked.  Pickett-meh.  Trevor, probably pans out (#1 overall).  Wilson benched.  Lance injured.  Jones--looking at a handing Belichick a losing season.  Burrow--the real deal (#1 overall).  Tua--injury-plagued (above average).  Herbert***the REAL exception***. Murray#1--looking like a bust.  Daniel Jones--likely FA, Haskins (RIP) bust.  Baker-Bust! Sam-simi-bust.  Allen--Legit.  Rosen-B-U-ST!!!  Trubisky BUST.  Mahommes-REAL DEAL.  Waston-Moments, but legal issues.

So you got, #1 overall withstanding (not moving up that far)  Herbert, Allen and Mahommes.  Tua is having a good season--his first but it's too early to crown him yet.

I have yet to see this pattern of QBs that are can't miss prospects.  Granted, the miss rate is slowing declining, but it's still very prevalent.