Will we not know the QB situ until the draft or...

[panthers55]

If I was Matt Moore I would demand to be named the team's starter if Jake was to stay onboard.

Hard for him to demand anything when he isn't even under contract and probably has been told by Fox he has to work harder and put in more work to be named the starter. If he forces it now he will likely be let go and there aren't that many starting spots up for grabs these days. If he hangs in there and does what he needs to, he has a great shot to start next year.

[raleigh-panther]

How do you know what Moore has, or has not been told by Fox?

As far as other places to go, I believe the article by Steve Reed discusses this quite well.

http://www.carolinagrowl.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=399:column-panthers-cant-afford-to-risk-losing-restricted-free-agent-qb-moore&catid=1:articles

[Leeroy Jenkins PhD]

I feel Jake got the start for so long because no one wanted to admit their mistake by signing him to such a long contract! Sitting Jake was admitting you messed up. HINTS THE BROKEN FINGER LIE! Call it what it is! a bunch of BS!!!!

As far as the QB competition goes, it is Moore's job. They just can't tell him this while his contract is being renegotiated. They will bring in some other joke back up to a back up and call it an open competition but Moore has already solidified his spot.

Hopefully next year is an uncapped year and we can release Jake without taking a serious hit, but I believe they will get something worked out befor the season. A uncapped year will only hurt the average and league minimum NFL player, while multiplying "STARS" pay.

I believe next year we go into training camp with at least 5 if not 6 QBs. the current 4, a new crappy league vet and a late draft pick. Even though its all a show and Moore will be the starter..... quote me on that

[panthers55]

Well I assume if we use our very first pick in the draft on a QB instead of a WR we aren't looking Jake's way...so camp or not I think that will tell us. Although that still leaves us with Fox, Jake and Matt.

so if one of those two is to start should that not be released soon?

or are we going to make both QBs think teh panthers have no confidence in them until gametime?

I don't think a draft pick say anything definitive one way or the other. Everyone knows that Jake won't be here long term so we need to be grooming someone for the long haul. It could say that they may not be looking at Matt as the long term solution or that they need to groom somone behind him as well. Or it could just be the best guy available.

As for picking a starter, I doubt you will hear anything before OTAs and camp and that will be only glimmers like who is getting most of the work with the number 1s.

[panthers55]

How do you know what Moore has, or has not been told by Fox?

As far as other places to go, I believe the article by Steve Reed discusses this quite well.

http://www.carolinagrowl.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=399:column-panthers-cant-afford-to-risk-losing-restricted-free-agent-qb-moore&catid=1:articles

I said much the same thing weeks ago. Whether we try and sign him longterm or put the tender on him will tell us how the front office feels about him. Moore says he wants to be here so signing him longterm would seem to surely be doable. If you put the tender on him then either you want to see what other teams think he is worth with the idea that you can match it but don't want to overpay, or you are willing to let him go for the draft picks. I don't know what kind of poison pill a team could use in order to steal him so we can't match it, but it is taking a chance.

Personally I would like to see us sign him long term but it isn't my money so I don't have a dime in it.

[raleigh-panther]

True and true.

People have their opinions.

My opinion of Fox is when it comes to judging, or grooming, QB talent for the long-term, he either does have it, or the desire to do it. All of which is concerning to me as a season ticket holder, with the $4K bill coming the end of March, as to me, QB is the most impotant position on the field and feel it has been long neglected under Fox's regime. Fox is happy with 'serviceable', I am not. A good to great QB can make very average players look a whole lot better.

There was an internet article recently, talking about the differences between 'innovative' coaches vs. 'manager' coaches. Innovative coaches adjust and adapt to the personal they have; manager coaches stick to the plan, no matter what personal they have, personal that changes regularly in the NFL due to injury and free agency, salary cap, etc.

I feel Fox is a 'manager', not an innovator. The Panthers' schedule looks to be much easier this year, and Fox will no doubt be at least 10-6, and so what.

Then again, I never take the safe way, and I suspect I don't respect those who do take the safe way, so my view of Fox is tainted.

[Miaoww]

I wouldn't be supprised to see the big cat stop in here. He usually has the pulse of the fans and I hope he knows how much panthers nation has turned on Jake.

They've finally turned on Fox, but he's still collecting a pay cheque.

[AceMan]

First, there is no convincing panthers55 and an other select few...these are the same guys who stood up for Jake up until the Jets game and still take up for John Fox. Their vision of Delhomme/Fox/(Panthers in general) is heavily skewered.

As for the OP, I agree...we are in a f***ed up situation right now at QB. Like I said before, naming Moore the starter heading into camp would seem like the logical move...All the excuses of "we're a quiet, behind the scenes" organization is BS. Right now, this is how I see it...

Jerry R. - F***ed up situation

John Fox - F***ed up situation

Jake Delhomme - Extremely F***ed up situation

Matt Moore aka God Incarnate - Sitting pretty

Now you're wondering, why is Matt Moore sitting pretty? Because he has this organization by the nuts. Jerry R. knows that Fox/Hurney has been f***ing things up when he was out. He wants to get rid of Fox, but can't because of the money obligated to Fox. Fox knows he is in a lame duck situation and JR doesn't believe in him. Jake Delhomme...nuff said.

First, Matt Moore has a good chance of being signed long-term...either by Carolina or another team. We will have to put a 1st round tender to even think of keeping him. I think someone will make a go at Moore if we put a 2nd round tender on him. Either way, I think we will end up signing Moore long-term. If we lose Moore, JR can expect alot of pissed off fans and sadly, our fanbase isn't strong enough to endure increbily stupid moves well(Ex: Starting David Carr - Received Death threats...and Starting Delhomme - Joke of the year).

Now onto competition...I mean really? Delhomme vs. Moore? lol some of you guys make me laugh. People have been calling for Delhomme's head for years now...now we know that Delhomme has been given the starting job without any competition. There is alot to speculate... One, there is the speculation that Fox just doesn't like Moore. We heard it from Zod :coughBeasoncough: It's extremely sad that a few believe Moore vs. Delhomme is actual competition. Take a step back and look at the actual situation at hand...Delhomme is in a lose-lose situation here in Carolina. His legacy is already tarnished. 95% of the fans don't want him as a starter. If Delhomme loses out in camp, Fox and the franchise look like complete idiots for that extension. Delhomme can play like P.Manning in camp, if he wins out...the fans will bury this franchise. That is the problem I see with alot of you slurpers...they believe that it would be okay if Delhomme actually "competed" and started. Also, anybody believing Delhomme will play at a decent level is really living a delusional life. He is DONE...ACCEPT IT!!! If Delhomme wins, majority will attribute that to Fox being Fox and choosing his loyalty over the franchise. Something he has ALREADY done for the 2009 season which alot of slurpers seem to forget.

If I'm Matt Moore, am I really worried about Delhomme beating me in camp? Moore can goof around, keep his "California cool" persona and half-ass the whole time...people are just not going to accept Delhomme for a 3rd year of sucking. Going into camp with Moore, Delhomme, Rookie/FA-pickup is a crappy situation. Basically, we're putting all of our hope on Moore stay healthy AND playing well since he has NO ONE behind him. Fox will not play a rookie over Delhomme. I generally ignore comments such as "Delhomme has experience, can win a few games for us" because they're ignorant. If Delhomme is ever forced to play an extended amount of time...the season is immediately over at that point. Like I said before, he is on JaMarcus Russell level...he can lose even the most winningest of games. Delhomme would absolutely SUCK as back-up.

This is how you try to remedy the situation.

1. You cut Delhomme

2. You bring in "actual" competion to start. FA pick-up or high draft pick...somebody that you can actually look at as starter.

3. By doing this, you FORCE Fox to actually look at the QB position objectively.

4. JR or somebody HAS to keep Fox in check during the season.

With Delhomme at camp, there is no competition. It becomes a spectacle and a joke at that point.

[HPPantherzfan]

Why would we know before training camp or preseason. Isn't the purpose of the preseason to establish the starters? One of things people always complain about is that there isn't any competition in training camp and people are just giving the starters roles whether they deserve it or not. Now when that is what Fox wants to do, people whine and complain because Moore hasn't been named the starter 6 months before hand.

Answer this question? Do you think players try harder and work more when they are in a competition for their jobs or when they are handed the role no matter how they perform?

Anyone think Godfrey coming back and playing so much better was because Martin did so well when he was substituting for Godfrey.

If you think about it for anytime you will clearly see that competition should happen across the board at all positions every year.

With this being Fox's last year expect everyone to be fighting for a job and the competition to be intense this summer.

What a lot of people fail to realize is the fact that Training camp and pre season are not the regular season with real time game speeds! Its like taking a test, some people are much smarter than others but just can't put what they know down on paper.

What I'm trying to say is it's obvious that Jake has been a much better Training Camp / Pre Season QB than anyone else on the roster but SUCKED when it counted...if you base things solely off of Training Camp and Preseason you may not get the full story...as EVERYONE on this board should be well aware of after this past season! Matt has done more than enough to be named started RIGHT NOW, IMO, for next season, give him that vote of confidence and lets see where it goes!

[panthers55]

True and true.

People have their opinions.

My opinion of Fox is when it comes to judging, or grooming, QB talent for the long-term, he either does have it, or the desire to do it. All of which is concerning to me as a season ticket holder, with the $4K bill coming the end of March, as to me, QB is the most impotant position on the field and feel it has been long neglected under Fox's regime. Fox is happy with 'serviceable', I am not. A good to great QB can make very average players look a whole lot better.

There was an internet article recently, talking about the differences between 'innovative' coaches vs. 'manager' coaches. Innovative coaches adjust and adapt to the personal they have; manager coaches stick to the plan, no matter what personal they have, personal that changes regularly in the NFL due to injury and free agency, salary cap, etc.

I feel Fox is a 'manager', not an innovator. The Panthers' schedule looks to be much easier this year, and Fox will no doubt be at least 10-6, and so what.

Then again, I never take the safe way, and I suspect I don't respect those who do take the safe way, so my view of Fox is tainted.

Would like to see the article. I would agree that Fox is a system coach which means he has a system and finds guys who fits into his system. That approach is tried and true and has resulted in many successful dynasties. Dean Smith was a system guy in college basketball. Many folks think Bill Belicheck is a system guy as well.

Food for thought. Some of Fox's best coaching jobs have been when he was beset by injuries like in 2004 and had to turn backups and role players into starters. He had to change and adapt to what he had while molding them into his system and getting the most out of what he had. Look at 2005. His philosophy is to run the ball but we didn't have the guys to run the system. So we go out and throw the ball al over the field, Smitty wins the triple crown and we go all the way to the NFC Championship game. Once Delhomme went down in 2007 he had a different quarterback in each week for most of the season and did well totally changing gameplans to adapt to who he had. probably his best job was working with Moore part 1 taking a rookie with no experience and helping him go 2-1 with a very pared down game plan.

Some people think that he did a good job this year working with Moore managing the offense and bringing along the defense under Meeks from a very poor unit at the beginning of the season to one of the best teams in football the last few games of the year.

Most coaches are system coaches in the NFL and as long as they have the talent to fit the system, they do very well. With the frequent roster changes, injuries etc in the NFL all coaches need to constantly change and adapt to different personnel grouping. In addition they need to change from week to week and even quarter to quarter in order to adapt to what the defense and offense is giving them. Certainly one of my gripes is that Fox doesn't adapt well on the fly and has trouble making changes. But it happens every week in the NFL to one extent or the other.

[panthers55]

First, there is no convincing panthers55 and an other select few...these are the same guys who stood up for Jake up until the Jets game and still take up for John Fox. Their vision of Delhomme/Fox/(Panthers in general) is heavily skewered.

As for the OP, I agree...we are in a f***ed up situation right now at QB. Like I said before, naming Moore the starter heading into camp would seem like the logical move...All the excuses of "we're a quiet, behind the scenes" organization is BS. Right now, this is how I see it...

Jerry R. - F***ed up situation

John Fox - F***ed up situation

Jake Delhomme - Extremely F***ed up situation

Matt Moore aka God Incarnate - Sitting pretty

Now you're wondering, why is Matt Moore sitting pretty? Because he has this organization by the nuts. Jerry R. knows that Fox/Hurney has been f***ing things up when he was out. He wants to get rid of Fox, but can't because of the money obligated to Fox. Fox knows he is in a lame duck situation and JR doesn't believe in him. Jake Delhomme...nuff said.

First, Matt Moore has a good chance of being signed long-term...either by Carolina or another team. We will have to put a 1st round tender to even think of keeping him. I think someone will make a go at Moore if we put a 2nd round tender on him. Either way, I think we will end up signing Moore long-term. If we lose Moore, JR can expect alot of pissed off fans and sadly, our fanbase isn't strong enough to endure increbily stupid moves well(Ex: Starting David Carr - Received Death threats...and Starting Delhomme - Joke of the year).

Now onto competition...I mean really? Delhomme vs. Moore? lol some of you guys make me laugh. People have been calling for Delhomme's head for years now...now we know that Delhomme has been given the starting job without any competition. There is alot to speculate... One, there is the speculation that Fox just doesn't like Moore. We heard it from Zod :coughBeasoncough: It's extremely sad that a few believe Moore vs. Delhomme is actual competition. Take a step back and look at the actual situation at hand...Delhomme is in a lose-lose situation here in Carolina. His legacy is already tarnished. 95% of the fans don't want him as a starter. If Delhomme loses out in camp, Fox and the franchise look like complete idiots for that extension. Delhomme can play like P.Manning in camp, if he wins out...the fans will bury this franchise. That is the problem I see with alot of you slurpers...they believe that it would be okay if Delhomme actually "competed" and started. Also, anybody believing Delhomme will play at a decent level is really living a delusional life. He is DONE...ACCEPT IT!!! If Delhomme wins, majority will attribute that to Fox being Fox and choosing his loyalty over the franchise. Something he has ALREADY done for the 2009 season which alot of slurpers seem to forget.

If I'm Matt Moore, am I really worried about Delhomme beating me in camp? Moore can goof around, keep his "California cool" persona and half-ass the whole time...people are just not going to accept Delhomme for a 3rd year of sucking. Going into camp with Moore, Delhomme, Rookie/FA-pickup is a crappy situation. Basically, we're putting all of our hope on Moore stay healthy AND playing well since he has NO ONE behind him. Fox will not play a rookie over Delhomme. I generally ignore comments such as "Delhomme has experience, can win a few games for us" because they're ignorant. If Delhomme is ever forced to play an extended amount of time...the season is immediately over at that point. Like I said before, he is on JaMarcus Russell level...he can lose even the most winningest of games. Delhomme would absolutely SUCK as back-up.

This is how you try to remedy the situation.

1. You cut Delhomme

2. You bring in "actual" competion to start. FA pick-up or high draft pick...somebody that you can actually look at as starter.

3. By doing this, you FORCE Fox to actually look at the QB position objectively.

4. JR or somebody HAS to keep Fox in check during the season.

With Delhomme at camp, there is no competition. It becomes a spectacle and a joke at that point.

You are absolutely correct, if this kind of logic is expected to convince anyone that any of your arguments have the hint of legitimacy then I remain unconvinced.

You have thrown out a page of highly speculative, unproven, opinionated statements and expect people to agree. Well you might convince the negative complainers but anyone with an ounce of abstract ability will dismiss this as ranting not reason. You are certainly welcome to your opinion as are all others but if you want to convince anyone of anything try using logic and facts instead of rants and opinions.

[panthers55]

What a lot of people fail to realize is the fact that Training camp and pre season are not the regular season with real time game speeds! Its like taking a test, some people are much smarter than others but just can't put what they know down on paper.

What I'm trying to say is it's obvious that Jake has been a much better Training Camp / Pre Season QB than anyone else on the roster but SUCKED when it counted...if you base things solely off of Training Camp and Preseason you may not get the full story...as EVERYONE on this board should be well aware of after this past season! Matt has done more than enough to be named started RIGHT NOW, IMO, for next season, give him that vote of confidence and lets see where it goes!

Have you ever played a sport at a competitve level. If you have you know that practice is where you learn everything you need to demonstrate in a game just like studying for a test prepares you to excel when you take one. While there are exceptions to any rule, the better you prepare the better you perform. Practice gives you the repetitions so that in a game situation you react instead of think, you automatically go through progressions and make decisions with out thinking about them.

Jake is a better practice quarterback because he has been in the system longer, and works harder. His problem is that he has lost his mojo and has what many professional athletes develop at some time in their career, some calling it choking, others call it the yips, whatever. Some guys recover some never do, that remains to be seen.

As for naming him the starter, that is a poor idea. Moore doesn't need confidence so much as he needs to be pushed in practice and camp with competition. Those of you who want him named starter want to do so to reduce your own insecurity and anxiety about next season. it has nothing to do with whether he will play better or not. Moore IMO needs to be pushed to be a better practice player and give more effort in the film room and take things more seriously. Then he becomes the complete player and will continue to improve his game. This isn't about Matt or Jake if you take the big picture view. It is about Matt developing the work habits and work ethic to be internally motivated to excel whether there is competition or not. To develop an internal locus of control and until then use external methods like competition to push him. Most great quarterbacks in the league are also the best practice players and spend extra time in the film room and do everything they can. Having Moore sweat it out and have to win the job in camp by his preseason and practice effort will pay off alot more in the long run. It is setting the precedence for the rest of his career. Williams had his best year after we drafted Stewart in the first round. Vinny's advice and Stewart's competition forced Williams to work harder. And the majority of that was in practice every day and evident in camp long before it showed up in games.

[DaCityKats]

Jake wasn't the starter in 03 and was listed as the third quarterback in camp. He had a better preseason than anyone else but still wasn't the starter. He won that on the field. After leading us to the Super Bowl and outplaying Brady he was finally named the starter before the season in 04 based on his 03 work.

Moore hasn't played a full season or shown he can hold up for a full season. Remember he was on IR all of 08. He has shown he can be be a starter. Whether he is THE starter is due to how he plays in 2010 and whether he works harder in camp, watches film and shows in Fox's eyes he is a football guy.

i know jake wasnt the starter in 03. now we all say preseaon is bull and doesnt mean anything so no agruement there. this guy has won 6 out of 8 games he started, but will not improve until he gets his fair shot. all im saying is give the guy a chance.that jake of 03 has not been seen, he had a ryan leaf year last year, and look what happen to him. remember 03 we wasnt sure about jake either, but he got his chance to show us. now its someone else turn to show us something.you dont have to be a football guy to be a good football player!

ps. im not arguing matt to be our starter either, just not jake.

[SMACKDAB]

P55, you constantly belittle people, and put them down no matter what they have to say.

Especially if it doesn't jive with your "better than thou" opinion.

Sorry you didn't turn out to be what you always wanted to be, but your attitude towards others, that don't see the same sh!t colored, cock sucking balls you do, is living proof you don't know poo, even when you are that close to it.

You criticize everyone that doesn't agree with your assessment of the Panthers, period.

You are almost as bad as KT with the race card when it comes to the Panthers.