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Training Camp for 7/29/2024

Icege

By Icege,
in Carolina Panthers

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strato Grand Master

strato

Posted
Posted (edited)

fug that. That is a malicious definition, it completely disrespects actual legit great throws. We need some reform. 

not that a 20 yard throw can’t be great. It’s isn’t a great 30 yard, or 40 yard throw though. 

Edited by strato
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ForJimmy Grand Master

ForJimmy

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, strato said:

fug that. That is a malicious definition, it completely disrespects actual legit great throws. We need some reform. 

not that a 20 yard throw can’t be great. It’s isn’t a great 30 yard, or 40 yard throw though. 

The great QBs are averaging in the 8s for YPA.  Mahomes' career average is 7.9 and that is in Andy Reid's wide open offense.  These averages are also including YAC.  So throwing a pass that is triple (yeah I am being vague here) your average is considered deep, double is considered medium (remember these are without YAC past the LOS).  It just is what it is man.  As @Bear Handsstated, Bryce still wasn't good at it last year, so anyone using it to hate on him can continue to do so.  It's just hard to change the definition on something that already has one....

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PNW_PantherMan Grand Master

PNW_PantherMan

Posted
Posted
19 minutes ago, strato said:

fug that. That is a malicious definition, it completely disrespects actual legit great throws. We need some reform. 

not that a 20 yard throw can’t be great. It’s isn’t a great 30 yard, or 40 yard throw though. 

I realize you gotta draw the line somewhere, but yeah.  The context is really everything.  Imagining a QB lob a TD from the 20 yard line does not scream deep ball.  It's borderline but it's really more of a longer intermediate throw as far as pass pattern and play design.

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strato Grand Master

strato

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

I realize you gotta draw the line somewhere, but yeah.  The context is really everything.  Imagining a QB lob a TD from the 20 yard line does not scream deep ball.  It's borderline but it's really more of a longer intermediate throw as far as pass pattern and play design.

I guess my point is, where the hell is medium? Did they just do away with it? There should not be some binary system that doesn’t allow for a finer categorization than over or under 20 yards. 

Edited by strato
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MasterAwesome Veteran

MasterAwesome

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2 hours ago, ForJimmy said:

Yeah throwing the ball 20 plus yards accurately against NFL defenses is no easy task.  That's my biggest take.  People on here scoffing at 20 plus yard passes.  I mean after the 25 yard touchback, one of those gets you at midfield and another is close to the redzone.  It's was definitely a weakness for Bryce last year, even looking at the 20 plus yard range.  

I do think that this falls on the WR as much at the QB though.  The 5 top ones you mentioned had a nice WR core and a nice offensive scheme to use them effectively.  Notice how the two biggest arms (Allen and Mahomes) were not in the top group you mentioned.  Big arm doesn't always equate to deep passes as much as people think.  You have to hit a spot on the field at the right time and have a WR capable of beating his guy, and going out and getting the ball.  I think our staff knows this and wanted XL and Sanders (TE) to help address a previous offensive weakness.  They may take a minute to get comfortable but I think they were drafted to help with this.  Whether it is Bryce or another QB we replace him with we want to have some "deep ball catchers" on this offense.

Not only was Mahomes not in the top group, he was apparently one of the worst deep passers in the league last year.  Yet he won the Super Bowl...hmm....

image.thumb.png.a3ea3e794218efc81552cae3076b73e0.png

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Bear Hands Grand Master

Bear Hands

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2 hours ago, ForJimmy said:

The great QBs are averaging in the 8s for YPA.  Mahomes' career average is 7.9 and that is in Andy Reid's wide open offense.  These averages are also including YAC.  So throwing a pass that is triple (yeah I am being vague here) your average is considered deep, double is considered medium (remember these are without YAC past the LOS).  It just is what it is man.  As @Bear Handsstated, Bryce still wasn't good at it last year, so anyone using it to hate on him can continue to do so.  It's just hard to change the definition on something that already has one....

Yup.

And in the modern NFL, there's an interesting trend of a higher depth of target but less overall deep balls.  Modern QBs need to be versatile and have the ability to make every throw.  Definitions aside, as MasterAwesome points out, Mahomes short and intermediate is on point.  It's about making any spot of the field dangerous.  

 

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ForJimmy Grand Master

ForJimmy

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12 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

Not only was Mahomes not in the top group, he was apparently one of the worst deep passers in the league last year.  Yet he won the Super Bowl...hmm....

image.thumb.png.a3ea3e794218efc81552cae3076b73e0.png

Nice find!  He also was working with a subpar WR group.  I really think the "deep ball" pass is more on the WR/Scheme these days.  Most QBs can lob it up a decent amount of yards to a spot.  The ones that lead in the deep ball stat have the WRs to go get it and the schemes to get them open for it.

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MasterAwesome Veteran

MasterAwesome

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Posted
24 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

Nice find!  He also was working with a subpar WR group.  I really think the "deep ball" pass is more on the WR/Scheme these days.  Most QBs can lob it up a decent amount of yards to a spot.  The ones that lead in the deep ball stat have the WRs to go get it and the schemes to get them open for it.

Yeah I agree 100% about WR/Scheme.  I just find it ironic that the people who fail to recognize that, are the ones who would see a passing chart like that and unknowingly think it belongs to a JAG game manager ("game manager" in a pejorative sense) and not the reigning Super Bowl champion/potential greatest QB of all time in his prime. 

It feels like some people just have a personal intuitive belief or desire of how the game is/should be played and it sometimes contradicts reality.  How many times do we hear that the run game is antiquated and that this is an offense-driven league?  Yet...3 of the top 4 teams last year had Top 5 rushing attacks.  3 of the top 4 teams also had Top 5 defenses...including, again, the reigning Super Bowl champs who were essentially carried all season by that defense.  Yet people still want to believe that the Chiefs success last year was on the back of Mahomes.  Yes, Mahomes is incredible and an elite QB is always obviously a huge asset to have.  But the Mahomes last year felt a lot more like the "just 1 of 11" type QB that Canales has been preaching that is part of the formula, performing within his role and distributing the pass efficiently rather than playing Superman and carrying the team.

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Bear Hands Grand Master

Bear Hands

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11 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

Yeah I agree 100% about WR/Scheme.  I just find it ironic that the people who fail to recognize that, are the ones who would see a passing chart like that and unknowingly think it belongs to a JAG game manager ("game manager" in a pejorative sense) and not the reigning Super Bowl champion/potential greatest QB of all time in his prime. 

It feels like some people just have a personal intuitive belief or desire of how the game is/should be played and it sometimes contradicts reality.  How many times do we hear that the run game is antiquated and that this is an offense-driven league?  Yet...3 of the top 4 teams last year had Top 5 rushing attacks.  3 of the top 4 teams also had Top 5 defenses...including, again, the reigning Super Bowl champs who were essentially carried all season by that defense.  Yet people still want to believe that the Chiefs success last year was on the back of Mahomes.  Yes, Mahomes is incredible and an elite QB is always obviously a huge asset to have.  But the Mahomes last year felt a lot more like the "just 1 of 11" type QB that Canales has been preaching that is part of the formula, performing within his role and distributing the pass efficiently rather than playing Superman and carrying the team.

Nice post.

McDuffie and Jones were major reasons for the SB too. That defense was excellent- Their defense never allowed them to let a game slip beyond their grasp. Even when behind, kept the win attainable. Then you have a guy like Mahomes that can make the 7-10 point comeback in a flash, you’ve got the recipe for success. 

 

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strato Grand Master

strato

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Posted (edited)

As the long game relates to us, we need to make people defend it, as has been said. 

Chiefs: No one had an answer for Kelce for a couple years running. 

People could not defend him. Short medium long. 

 

 

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    • SmokinwithWilly
      Dan looking at a new Conerback!!!

      By SmokinwithWilly · Posted

      Nothing wrong with starting to look for bodies early. It's a long injury filled season. I doubt we get through unscathed. 
    • Icege
      Adam Theilen said he came back to play with Bryce, and he expects the Panthers to surprise some people

      By Icege · Posted

      We're in alignment regarding Thielen not being a game changer/breaker for the Panthers. Getting the ball into hands of playmakers like TMac and XL is going to open up things more than it is getting it to Thielen underneath (or letting him go after 50/50 balls 20yds downfield in his mid-30s). However, in a room where the other guys are two second year guys and two rookies, having a reliable vet that they can learn from is just as important as it is for the QB to have as a reliable third option. I can see that being worth $8.5M (just 3%) of the $279.2M cap... especially when looking at what's left out there: https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/_/position/wr However, the idea that the team is forcing production to Thielen and leading to losses isn't supported by the data. Targets, not receiving yards, are how you can tell if a player is being "force fed." In the two games mentioned, let's look at the other players available... vs. TB 10 targets - Adam Thielen 9 targets - David Moore 8 targets - Tommy Tremble, Xavier Legette 3 targets - Jonathon Brooks 1 target - Dan Chisena, Feleipe Franks, Stephen Sullivan vs. PHI 11 targets - Adam Thielen 8 targets - Xavier Legette 5 targets - Chuba Hubbard, David Moore 2 targets - Tommy Tremble 1 target - Ja'Tavion Sanders, Deven Thompkins There isn't exactly a bounty of other names to throw the ball to. In those games, AT was one of the top 2 WRs. Diontae had been gone by that point.   So... yea. Agreed that Thielen isn't exactly carrying the team in his mid-30s, but it's undeniable that he was the most reliable target last season that still has quite a bit of value this season. Whether or not that value is reflected in a manner folks think on the contract is going to come down to personal taste. However, the idea that the team was forcing production to AT and that was the reason behind some losses couldn't be further from the truth.
    • PNW_PantherMan
      Adam Theilen said he came back to play with Bryce, and he expects the Panthers to surprise some people

      By PNW_PantherMan · Posted

      I would also add that I think it's more than money.  AT has looked absolutely miserable out there at times, and there was a lot of speculation he would demand to be traded.  Personally, I thought he was a lock to be moved last year.  Maybe his hamstring is the only thing that prevents that from happening. The fact that he's not only willing to come back and play, but excited about it, really bodes well for Bryce.  AT is a veteran and he knows the game.  If he didn't have confidence in Bryce, I guarantee you he wouldn't be in a Panther uniform this year.  I'll take that as a positive.
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