Want ot wait till after the first round to get a QB??

[Mr. Scot]

Good thing I'm not one of those guys. I don't want him to start next year at all if he doesn't have to.

The one read and run stigma is false and has been debunked time and time again. It isn't true. The offense is not one read or run offense (although there are some plays built in to do just that). When passing plays were called he rarely bailed on the play. He stayed in the pocket and weent through his progressions.

Randall Cunningham is Can Newton's basement. His ceiling can't be compared to anyone bc there hasn't been a player like him at the QB position.

There was Randall Cunningham, then Mike Vick has taken it a step further, and Cam Newton could be Mike Vick 2.0.

If he's not capable of starting this year, why do we want him? We've already got projects on roster.

The one-read-and-run thing isn't a stigma. It's a factor, and it hasn't been debunked (guys that write for Miami draft blogs don't have that kind of influence). Plain and simple, guys that haven't been taught how to play in a pro-style offense have to learn how to do so. That's just a fact of life. You can't "debunk" it.

Newton isn't even a consensus #1 pick, and you've already got him in the Hall of Fame :rolleyes:

[teeray]

Good thing I'm not one of those guys. I don't want him to start next year at all if he doesn't have to.

The one read and run stigma is false and has been debunked time and time again. It isn't true. The offense is not one read or run offense (although there are some plays built in to do just that). When passing plays were called he rarely bailed on the play. He stayed in the pocket and weent through his progressions.

Randall Cunningham is Can Newton's basement. His ceiling can't be compared to anyone bc there hasn't been a player like him at the QB position.

There was Randall Cunningham, then Mike Vick has taken it a step further, and Cam Newton could be Mike Vick 2.0.

I actually lied a bit. There are three previous QB's that remind me a lot of Cam Newton.

Steve McNair, Dante Culpepper, and John Elway. Those are the closest things we have to a precedent for Cam Newton.

BTW all three are former MVP's

[Mr. Scot]

I actually lied a bit. There are three previous QB's that remind me a lot of Cam Newton.

Steve McNair, Dante Culpepper, and John Elway. Those are the closest things we have to a precedent for Cam Newton.

BTW all three are former MVP's

Yeah. I'm sure he's all those guys rolled into one.

Wow :rolleyes:

[teeray]

Yeah. I'm sure he's all those guys rolled into one.

Wow :rolleyes:

No not really. But if you saw these guys play in college you saw a lot of the same qualities that you see with Cam. They were unbelievable. But McNair and Culpepper played really weak competition. Elway was a better passer but a very effective runner as well.

They are just the only ones I can think of that even remotely remind me of Cam. Two of those guys heard a lot of the same stuff people are saying about Cam PLUS they played weak competition.

[Urrymonster]

Why top 44 picks? Who fell between 33 & 44?

Garrard and Orton ARE good QBs, just look at the last couple of years for them.

I also really scratch my head when people think the one read-and-run concept is 'debunked. I guess you guys haven't bothered to check him out and are relying on 2nd-3rd hand information from independent fan based draft write ups?

Last the there was a video posted and people convinced themselves he had made up to 4-5 reads on a play, when only 2 receivers were sent out on routes and he didn't look in the direction of one. People really will see what they want to see.

Elite Athlete

Elite Potential

Questionable Pro QB

Questionable Character

You don't draft a project with the #1 pick.

[brandon_87]

Look at all those all stars!!! Damn!

[Seamonk]

My Cam Newton absurd allegations:

Number 1 He's the next Reggie Bush.

Potential? Yes

Drive? Yes

College Allegations? Yes

Athletic Freak? Yes

Turned out to be not very important. Can't say the same for Cam. But Media loves hype. Same goes for Luck except no uncovered allegations.

Number 2: Cam is not a safe pick.

Cam Would be fun to watch. Will win games due to his athleticism.

That said, I don't want him. I don't think Jimmy is the answer.. or anyone that is currently on our team. Luck was a really good prospect because while he had yet to play a snap in the NFL.. he was safe. He was a really really safe pick with all the attributes you typically look for. Size, Arm, Athletic, Accuracy, Make all the throws. Prototypical Pocket Passer. All models of a QB have been him since the dawn of time. Very Coachable. Many say that Harbaugh made him. Coachability is VERY important. (More on that later)

Number 3: Offense

As for Cam, the argument "he played in a very complex offense that he mastered under a year" doesn't really work. His rock step motion when he throws helped him out a lot. And with a lot of Running QBs, there's the ability to make a decision to run or throw. The window for throwing downfield in College while a play breaks down is far larger than in the NFL. He will be inclined to run more as a result. Simply put: He's a play maker. The offense didn't make him. He made the offense. Mastery has little effect on it and he's gonna want to make the play.

When a play breaks down, you're running your own play now. In college, Cam made plays when the plays broke down. It's not really a mastery of the offense, it's mastery of the escape artist. That is what guys like Mike Vick have been really dangerous with. As panthers fans you should know how many times we've had the defense that stumped Vick only for him to run the edge and get a first down/touchdown anyway. I'm not gonna say that's not gonna work in the NFL, I'm just gonna say that just like Vick in ATL, you're putting TOO MUCH emphasis on the QB making plays. If we DO draft Cam Newton, i think with the new offense we HAVE to help him progress to a PHI Vick and not an ATL Vick. The difference being the ability to determine when to run and when to pass. Which is REALLY hard to teach for in NFL situations.

Number 4: Coachability in the NFL

I don't mind Cam Newton as a football player. I just think he's more of a gamble in that his playing style is harder to coach in the NFL. There's nothing wrong with him, it's just not a lot of coaches are willing to take gambles like that. Because even if he's good, with the #1 overall pick, you never made him great.

Now, I really want the Cam nut huggers to ask yourselves.. Do we have the coaching staff to coach a Cam Newton?(Shula our QB coach) Because what's the point of getting him if he's not gonna be used properly. There's not a lot of NFL coaches out there who have successfully coached a running QB other than some offensive geniuses who figured out how to properly use them in an implemented system.

Number 5: Football IQ vs Football Instincts

Note how I haven't mentioned anything about his Intellect. It's one thing to be football smart and absorb everything. It's another to have football instincts. They're not the same. The balance of the two is what makes you. One can make up for the other. You've heard players be referred to as "a student of the game" etc.. Then there are others who can just play. I'm gonna let you guys determine which Cam is.

Conclusion: Cam is a freak of nature who on paper could be very dangerous. However, while the immense potential is there, it's VERY difficult to harness it for a player his type. You've gotta have HUGE faith in your coaching staff to do so. If you look at other potential Top 5 picks.. these concerns are nonexistent. You've got to have balls to draft Cam Newton #1 overall.

PS: to stay on the ACTUAL topic. Most organizations don't often look for a FRANCHISE QB out of the first round. Typically if they take a QB 2nd-later, it's often times because it's BPA. Not saying it's never been done.. (clearly we thought Jimmy was gonna be a franchise QB) but that can skew those findings. Pretty sure those guys weren't taken to unseat the current starters. That is the value of a luxury pick vs a need pick.

[teeray]

Number 3: Offense

As for Cam, the argument "he played in a very complex offense that he mastered under a year" doesn't really work. His rock step motion when he throws helped him out a lot. And with a lot of Running QBs, there's the ability to make a decision to run or throw. The window for throwing downfield in College while a play breaks down is far larger than in the NFL. He will be inclined to run more as a result. Simply put: He's a play maker. The offense didn't make him. He made the offense. Mastery has little effect on it and he's gonna want to make the play.

When a play breaks down, you're running your own play now. In college, Cam made plays when the plays broke down. It's not really a mastery of the offense, it's mastery of the escape artist. That is what guys like Mike Vick have been really dangerous with. As panthers fans you should know how many times we've had the defense that stumped Vick only for him to run the edge and get a first down/touchdown anyway. I'm not gonna say that's not gonna work in the NFL, I'm just gonna say that just like Vick in ATL, you're putting TOO MUCH emphasis on the QB making plays. If we DO draft Cam Newton, i think with the new offense we HAVE to help him progress to a PHI Vick and not an ATL Vick. The difference being the ability to determine when to run and when to pass. Which is REALLY hard to teach for in NFL situations.

This has been pretty much debunked. His running plays were by design. When passing plays were called he stayed in the pocket and went through his progressions 91% of the time. he only bailed 9% of the time which was consistent to other QB's in the NFL. When the guys investigated this it was the same % that Aaron Rodgers this past season with the Packers.

Just because a guy has a high number of carries it doesn't automatically translate to one read and run nor an unwillingness to go through progressions. it is false but is a stigma he is having to face.

The Luck love fest has gone out of control. People act like we have never seen anything like this kid before. He is not a lock and gets way too much extra credit because of who his coach was and the system in which he played. Only problem is that these things are overrated and have been for some time.

i have said it before but the last 10 years there has been only 2 franchise QB come from a pure NFL style in college and was drafted in the first round. That is Matt Ryan and Aaron Rodgers.

Meanwhile, Russell, Leinart, Clausen, Campbell, Quinn, JP Losman, Patrick Ramsey, Kyle Boller, Joey Harrington etc., are the other QB's that played in pro-style offenses and bombed in the NFL.

What offense a kid played in college is one of the most irrelevant things that has ever been put into an evaluation process. It is utterly worthless but provides way too much extra credit to players during the evaluation process. The number don't pan out.

[koolkatluke]

No not really. But if you saw these guys play in college you saw a lot of the same qualities that you see with Cam. They were unbelievable. But McNair and Culpepper played really weak competition. Elway was a better passer but a very effective runner as well.

They are just the only ones I can think of that even remotely remind me of Cam. Two of those guys heard a lot of the same stuff people are saying about Cam PLUS they played weak competition.

He plays nothing like any of them QB!!! Did you really see John Elway in college?????? He plays more like Big Ben and Randel Cunningham then any other QB.

[Jackofalltrades]

What offense a kid played in college is one of the most irrelevant things that has ever been put into an evaluation process. It is utterly worthless but provides way too much extra credit to players during the evaluation process. The number don't pan out.

This may be one of the dumbest things I've ever read, honestly.

[Urrymonster]

This has been pretty much debunked. His running plays were by design. When passing plays were called he stayed in the pocket and went through his progressions 91% of the time. he only bailed 9% of the time which was consistent to other QB's in the NFL. When the guys investigated this it was the same % that Aaron Rodgers this past season with the Packers.

Just because a guy has a high number of carries it doesn't automatically translate to one read and run nor an unwillingness to go through progressions. it is false but is a stigma he is having to face.

The Luck love fest has gone out of control. People act like we have never seen anything like this kid before. He is not a lock and gets way too much extra credit because of who his coach was and the system in which he played. Only problem is that these things are overrated and have been for some time.

i have said it before but the last 10 years there has been only 2 franchise QB come from a pure NFL style in college and was drafted in the first round. That is Matt Ryan and Aaron Rodgers.

Meanwhile, Russell, Leinart, Clausen, Campbell, Quinn, JP Losman, Patrick Ramsey, Kyle Boller, Joey Harrington etc., are the other QB's that played in pro-style offenses and bombed in the NFL.

What offense a kid played in college is one of the most irrelevant things that has ever been put into an evaluation process. It is utterly worthless but provides way too much extra credit to players during the evaluation process. The number don't pan out.

Ah I see, you misunderstood what they wrote.

Just because he stayed in to pass on pass plays doesn't mean he went through progressions. He continued to do exactly what he was supposed to do, make a quick read and chuck it.

As well as those guys had done to break things down, a lot of Cam's pass/run plays are very difficult to distinguish between a one read and run play and a fake and run play, or a simple run play. Any break down they do will always be subjective and whilst sound reasoning, it really can't be taken for fact.

I really would love someone to find me 10-20 passing plays where he gets to his 3rd read, because then I might be more on board. That's whilst ignoring the red flags in his past, his questionable at best footwork in the pocket and his ability to throw into coverage.

[teeray]

This may be one of the dumbest things I've ever read, honestly.

Well at least you backed that up with some evidence of the guys who came from pro systems the last ten years and became franchise QB's.

there are some guys who may pan out like sanchez and stafford. Also Palmer could be an argument for a guy who came from a pro style and had some success.

Fact of the matter is that pro style QB's have been busting more than QB's from either a spread or a hybrid type of offense (a hybrid could have some pro style in them) lately. The reason is bc these players are getting more credit for the offense that they play in rather than the actual abilities the player possesses.

In addition, a QB coming from a spread has to do that much more to prove he is NFL ready because they are so penalized by their system in the evaluation process. I think that is why these guys are panning out more than NFL style QB's.

Either way the offense that you run in college has no bearing whatsoever on your ability to succeed in the pros.

[Urrymonster]

Well at least you backed that up with some evidence of the guys who came from pro systems the last ten years and became franchise QB's.

there are some guys who may pan out like sanchez and stafford. Also Palmer could be an argument for a guy who came from a pro style and had some success.

Fact of the matter is that pro style QB's have been busting more then QB's from either a spread or a hybrid type of offense (a hybrid could have some pro style in them) lately. The reason is bc these players are getting more credit for the offense that they play in rather than the actual ability the player possesses.

In addition, a QB coming from a spread has to do that much more to prove he is NFL ready because they are so penalized by their system in the evaluation process. I think that is why these guys are panning out more than NFL style QB's.

Either way the offense that you run in college has no bearing whatsoever on your ability to succeed in the pros.

No you have misunderstood this as well. The players playing ina pro style offense aren't given credit for it, it just makes evaluating them easier. Spread offense guys are usually given matchup heaven and much bigger windows to throw in and thus it makes it much harder to evaluate them.

[TheRealDeal]

Last the there was a video posted and people convinced themselves he had made up to 4-5 reads on a play, when only 2 receivers were sent out on routes and he didn't look in the direction of one. People really will see what they want to see.

Elite Athlete

Elite Potential

Questionable Pro QB

Questionable Character

You don't draft a project with the #1 pick.

Woo Hoo my old thread is getting a shout out!

:party: