One man’s trash…

[Khyber53]

1 hour ago, strato said:

Well, you aren’t really joking there but at the same time, talent will out. Cam in our case.  Manning. All the guys that people pointed to when Bryce sucked his first year, and said they struggled too…

 It is such a crap shoot.. but better than it was before they slotted the pay into a reasonable stratosphere. Talk about killing your franchise paying the equivalent of modern day 50-60 million per, to a green rookie….

You said it! 

But really, it comes down to fixing your organization and the team before diving in for that new QB. Even then, you've really only got about two seasons to do it before the GM and HC seats get too hot. It's a remarkably tough job and it keeps things interesting.

Quality organizations keep the ball rolling, sometimes for as much as 10 years of competitiveness. And bad organizations can have an even longer shelf life of hell for their fans. 

[strato]

1 minute ago, kungfoodude said:

We have literally made almost every mistake in the book, some several times, since Tepper assumed control. 

The sad truth is, we are likely doomed while he is in charge. 

I had hope as recently as this year that Bryce would fail so hard that Tepper just throws in the towel on dictating to the football people. But my meager sports prayers are not usually heard. 

[strato]

3 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

You said it! 

But really, it comes down to fixing your organization and the team before diving in for that new QB. Even then, you've really only got about two seasons to do it before the GM and HC seats get too hot. It's a remarkably tough job and it keeps things interesting.

Quality organizations keep the ball rolling, sometimes for as much as 10 years of competitiveness. And bad organizations can have an even longer shelf life of hell for their fans. 

At some point we need to commit and stick with a GM and coach. If we really want to be like Pittsburgh; Knoll, Cowher, Tomlin, we have to walk that walk. No shortcuts. 

[kungfoodude]

2 minutes ago, strato said:

I had hope as recently as this year that Bryce would fail so hard that Tepper just throws in the towel on dictating to the football people. But my meager sports prayers are not usually heard. 

I don't think he has a "hands off" mode. If you look at his business career it was built on eschewing the normal path and doing it his own way on his own terms. 

I don't envision that softening. It rarely does with advanced age.

[strato]

6 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I don't think he has a "hands off" mode. If you look at his business career it was built on eschewing the normal path and doing it his own way on his own terms. 

I don't envision that softening. It rarely does with advanced age.

I can’t argue too hard with established track records. Just hope because it has happened before.
 

I think it takes massive and embarrassing failure. It isn’t hard to conceptualize the general truism that success in one field does not guarantee success in another.

I have had to experience that in my the hard way before, dealing with a self made millionaire friend. 
Getting them to understand that is very difficult. I had to part ways to escape it 30 years later, he still hasn’t learned. But he isn’t my problem anymore…. 
Tepper cannot be excised so easily. 

Edited 2 hours ago by strato

[kungfoodude]

2 minutes ago, strato said:

I can’t argue too hard with established track records. Just hope because it has happened before.
 

I think it takes massive and embarrassing failure. It isn’t hard to conceptualize the general truism that success in one field does not guarantee success in another.

I have had to experience that in my the hard way before, dealing with a self made millionaire friend. 
Getting them to understand that is very difficult. I had to part ways to escape it 30 years later, he still hasn’t learned. But he isn’t my problem anymore…. 
Tepper cannot be excised so easily. 

Yeah, that "Me against the world" mentality can work....when you are right and know what you are doing. But if you don't know what you are doing and can't accept that you need to learn, that is an impossible hill to climb.

 

[Waldo]

28 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Well the most common record during both their tenures was 7-9. 

I was heavily against the massive teardown that most of the Huddle wanted after 2018. I kept warning people that successful franchises don't do that type of poo.

Turns out....successful franchises don't do that type of poo.

Yeah well I was agaisnt Hurney coming back and then helping hire Rhule but it happened anyways. Tepper has made it so bad and it's still ongoing currently. 

 

[strato]

2 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Yeah, that "Me against the world" mentality can work....when you are right and know what you are doing. But if you don't know what you are doing and can't accept that you need to learn, that is an impossible hill to climb.

 

My friend, pretty much stayed at his level for the next 30 years. But he is own boss and happy I guess. Not a bad guy personally. 
That is probably Tepper. 

[Khyber53]

38 minutes ago, strato said:

At some point we need to commit and stick with a GM and coach. If we really want to be like Pittsburgh; Knoll, Cowher, Tomlin, we have to walk that walk. No shortcuts. 

I agree. All of these guys, and let's face it our coaches before Canales, too, were selected to be head coaches not because they had developed weak or underperforming teams during their previous stops.

As a matter of fact, the only way to really move up in coaching is to start with a bad program, correct it, win and then move up when a vacancy arrives at yet another bad program, then do it again. Sometimes they are the HC, sometimes an assistant, whatever. But you've got to have some patience.

And yeah, there's the Peter principal at work, too, sometimes. That states that people will eventually be promoted to their level of incompetence. It kind of waves its hand at the idea that sometimes people learn a lot from mistakes and grow. 

It's really hard to win at this level of competition, this is the HC final boss level for football, from Peewee Leagues and Pop Warner, through junior high, high school, college and pro levels. It's tough and there are only 32 spots per year for the gigs (give or take a couple of mid-season replacement jobs). 

We have to remember that Tomlin, Cowher and Knoll all inherited collapsed teams. And each rebuilt them and had them eventually wear out and fall down, too (okay, Tomlin is still holding strong, but entropy eventually catches everyone), but each took a time commitment and good management to rebuild.

I wish we could snag onto the winning formula. But you're very right that we can't just change every two years and expect anything but the same restart difficulties each time.

[Khaki Lackey]

7 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

 

We have to remember that Tomlin, Cowher and Knoll all inherited collapsed teams. And each rebuilt them and had them eventually wear out and fall down, too (okay, Tomlin is still holding strong, but entropy eventually catches everyone), but each took a time commitment and good management to rebuild.

 

Dude, Tomlin inherited a .500 team that was one season removed from a super bowl victory

[kungfoodude]

1 minute ago, Khyber53 said:

I agree. All of these guys, and let's face it our coaches before Canales, too, were selected to be head coaches not because they had developed weak or underperforming teams during their previous stops.

As a matter of fact, the only way to really move up in coaching is to start with a bad program, correct it, win and then move up when a vacancy arrives at yet another bad program, then do it again. Sometimes they are the HC, sometimes an assistant, whatever. But you've got to have some patience.

And yeah, there's the Peter principal at work, too, sometimes. That states that people will eventually be promoted to their level of incompetence. It kind of waves its hand at the idea that sometimes people learn a lot from mistakes and grow. 

It's really hard to win at this level of competition, this is the HC final boss level for football, from Peewee Leagues and Pop Warner, through junior high, high school, college and pro levels. It's tough and there are only 32 spots per year for the gigs (give or take a couple of mid-season replacement jobs). 

We have to remember that Tomlin, Cowher and Knoll all inherited collapsed teams. And each rebuilt them and had them eventually wear out and fall down, too (okay, Tomlin is still holding strong, but entropy eventually catches everyone), but each took a time commitment and good management to rebuild.

I wish we could snag onto the winning formula. But you're very right that we can't just change every two years and expect anything but the same restart difficulties each time.

I would heavily push back on the notion of Tomlin and Cowher inheriting "collapsed teams." From 1980 to 1991(prior to Cowher and after their Super Bowl victories) the Steelers experienced just 4 sub .500 seasons. In fact the winning percentage for those years was 0.505. At most that was relatively mediocre, something fairly akin to the pre-Tepper Panthers. From Cowher through Tomlin(1992 to Present) it has been the NFL's best franchise. 22 playoff appearances, 4 Super Bowl Appearances, 2 Titles, 15 times winning the division. In fact they have only experienced 3 sub .500 records in that 34 season span. 

That isn't ever a scenario where rebuilding happens. It's constant and consistent retooling so that your franchise floor is always high. It's smart business decisions, exceptional drafting and quality personnel moves that create a situation where that floor STAYS high. 

It was precisely BECAUSE we opted to go through a complete teardown and "rebuild" without any of that competence being in the organization at all that led us to where we are currently. A situation that will more than likely continue for well over a decade longer. 

Long term successful franchises do not "rebuild." They are in a constant state of competent flux that sustains them through some leaner periods without ripping the foundation completely out that led to that success in the first place. 

[PNW_PantherMan]

21 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Long term successful franchises do not "rebuild." They are in a constant state of competent flux that sustains them through some leaner periods without ripping the foundation completely out that led to that success in the first place. 

Eagles and Ravens come to mind

[strato]

That Peter Principle is the real deal a whole lot of times. 
And HC just seems to me to be a totally different job than the subordinate positions of coordinator (all three phases, I think John Harbaugh was a ST coach) .

Anyhow it is real easy for HC people to be overwhelmed and unprepared. Such a different job. Those that hire ex HCs as mentors or coordinators are smart. But many just suck at it. 
You have to have all the organization in place, front office too. 

I tend to be supportive, at this stage, of the people we have and would be willing to stick with them like 5 years before judging their future. Because we need to establish continuity. At some point I would like to have OC that called the plays. It is too much for one guy. 
 

 

[kungfoodude]

2 minutes ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

Eagles and Ravens come to mind

It's funny how quickly people forget the "I wish we drafted like *insert successful NFL team*" comments during the season when the offseason hits. Then it's fire everyone, cut everyone, draft this RAS God, etc, etc. 

Look at how common it is for ALL those teams we talked about to be taking top players at their positions consistently throughout most drafts. BPA, high value guys. Constantly. 

They aren't reaching or trading up for the XL's, DJ Johnson's or the like. They make more smart decisions than dumb ones. It's that fuging simple.