Go after Shedeur this offseason.

[Mr. Scot]

2 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Yes, it's you and he. That is two.

Well in this context, there's actually three "guys on the internet with an opinion"

If you want more though, a quick search will tell you that Murray isn't necessarily as well thought of as you'd suggest. 

[kungfoodude]

5 minutes ago, Luciu5 said:

Maybe that's the problem? Maybe if QB's had more time to figure it out more would end up successful in the end? I know a lot of youtuber channels like Brett Kollman have contemplated this and think QBs are thrown in way too early and given up on way too quickly.

As far as BY goes, I'm not sold on him or anything, more on the fence. I've seen a lot of good and bad from him. Some QBs do develop late, like Sam Darnold. Do I want to hold onto BY for 5 more years to find out? No. I do think he should be our QB for next year unless a clear and obvious upgrade were to fall into our lap, otherwise I don't see the point of changing QBs going into next year. Keep building the team and insert an upgrade at QB whenever that opportunity presents.

I am not saying there isn't truth to that but the economics and reality of the NFL are producing that. It's very hard to justify taking a guy in the 1st round, shelving him for years, having to make a contract extension and THEN hoping it all turns out okay. Not to mention, imagine that scenario after what we traded for Bryce.

One thing is for certain, the QB desperation has led to bad 1st round QB picks for 15+ years now. That ain't new. 

I think we need to decide on Bryce's future this offseason and we will have to. In my eyes, picking up the 5th year option is the "all-in" move for a two year period. That means you are committed to him in the medium term. Not the move I would personally make. 

No matter what the decision is, I have been vocal about needing to bring in multiple QB's to improve that QB room for when Bryce falters again. How about just overall improving your team depth so that when it doesn't pan out, you at least have options on the roster? I don't feel like that is too much to ask and it's a valid bet hedge. 

[kungfoodude]

Just now, Mr. Scot said:

Well in this context, there's actually three "guys on the internet with an opinion"

If you want more though, a quick search will tell you that Murray isn't necessarily as well thought of as you'd suggest. 

I think you misunderstand what I mean by "significantly better than Bryce Young." That gets you entry into the top 30 NFL starting QB's. Not sure if you have seen that group recently, but it's not a strong one the further down that list you go.

Murray is a Tier 3 if not Tier 4 QB in my book.

[TD alt]

1 minute ago, Mr. Scot said:

Does that really help his case, though?

It's generally believed that he dropped as far as he did over the attitude issues. If, however, it wasn't so much the attitude as it was the evaluation of his abilities, that's arguably worse.

It's a matter of perspective. Hell, TB12 was skipped over 198 times for example. I mean, Montana, Wilson, Dak and a few others were skipped many times before they were drafted. Warner and Romo went undrafted for Pete's sake. Don't get me started on misses (and not just QBs). 

His attitude didn't help, but it was reported just as much that scouts/execs didn't necessarily believe he was a day one or two guy. Like I suggested, we'll never know the whole story. Moreover, you can't get around the fact that he's handled his situation in Cleveland with flying colors. That's been widely reported as well.

[Mr. Scot]

1 minute ago, kungfoodude said:

I think you misunderstand what I mean by "significantly better than Bryce Young." That gets you entry into the top 30 NFL starting QB's. Not sure if you have seen that group recently, but it's not a strong one the further down that list you go.

Murray is a Tier 3 if not Tier 4 QB in my book.

I don't put Bryce any higher than that, but I don't put Murray up there either. 

And we've touched on the reason: an unfortunate tendency to choke.

You can have all the best stats in any game you play in, but if you choke at a crucial point and lose the game, guess how much those stats count for?

And I will at least admit this when it comes to Bryce: his game performances of late definitely don't reflect choking. Just the opposite, in fact.

[Mr. Scot]

1 minute ago, TD alt said:

It's a matter of perspective. Hell, TB12 was skipped over 198 times for example. I mean, Montana, Wilson, Dak and a few others were skipped many times before they were drafted. Warner and Romo went undrafted for Pete's sake. Don't get me started on misses (and not just QBs). 

His attitude didn't help, but it was reported just as much that scouts/execs didn't necessarily believe he was a day one or two guy. Like I suggested, we'll never know the whole story. Moreover, you can't get around the fact that he's handled his situation in Cleveland with flying colors. That's been widely reported as well.

I wouldn't argue he's handled things well in Cleveland since his draft tumble. I give him credit for that.

Draft eval really only matters if they got it right. And with Shedeur, I think time will beat out that they did. Like others, he'll leave behind some cool highligh reels, but something less than a great career. 

[LinvilleGorge]

18 minutes ago, TD alt said:

But he was drafted...just not where he wanted to be drafted. No one really can say with ironclad clarity as to why. It was probably a combination of things (including their belief in his capabilities), but it wasn't because he told the Ravens not to draft him, as he did that on day three of the draft (and was drafted three spots later).

I think it basically came down to the NFL seriously doubting his ability to be a starting NFL QB and not wanting to bring on all the outside noise that he'd bring for a backup. Backup QBs are expected to be out of sight and out of mind. That doesn't exactly fit the wheelhouse of Shedeur and the Sanders clan, not to mention all the media clamoring about it. Then when he just blew off the entire pre-draft process (which he essentially flat out admitted to) I think he probably dropped completely off a lot of draft boards.

[Proudiddy]

23 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Yeah...no to Shedeur does not equal "nobody over Bryce". 

Didn’t say it does, Scot.  But as I pointed out earlier, most of the negativity in this thread is due to one of two reasons:

1) Guys that don’t want anyone competing with or taking the starting gig from their boy Bryce.

or 

2) Guys who dislike/hate Deion and Shedeur.  
 

Again, statistically, there are no grounds to pick Bryce as a starter over another QB over the last three seasons.  And statistically, what Shedeur is doing as a rookie is impressive thus far, whether he was Deion’s son or not.  So if it’s not statistics and the eye test, then why are people so fired up about it?  The tells are there.

[CRA]

1 minute ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I think it basically came down to the NFL seriously doubting his ability to be a starting NFL QB and not wanting to bring on all the outside noise that he'd bring for a backup. Backup QBs are expected to be out of sight and out of mind. That doesn't exactly fit the wheelhouse of Shedeur and the Sanders clan, not to mention all the media clamoring about it. Then when he just blew off the entire pre-draft process (which he essentially flat out admitted to) I think he probably dropped completely off a lot of draft boards.

I think outside noise was a MASSIVE factor.  Teams don't want it.  And it gets really hard to have it for anyone that isn't your star player.  

I do think for example, if Skip Bayless didn't exist and that circus....NFL teams would have loved the utility player/locker room presence of a The Golden Calf of Bristol after he flamed out as a starting QB.  Same thing.  But he basically was deemed unsignable because a Taysom Hill role player can't be taking up the air waves/oxygen ,  press conferences and be a national spectacle every single day for a coach/staff to deal with. 

I mean, Saunders is literally a walking reality TV show 

[TD alt]

1 minute ago, Mr. Scot said:

I wouldn't argue he's handled things well in Cleveland since his draft tumble. I give him credit for that.

Draft eval really only matters if they got it right. And with Shedeur, I think time will beat out that they did. Like others, he'll leave behind some cool highligh reels, but something less than a great career. 

But that's just an opinion essentially based upon three games---basically nothing. 

As for "great" career, that's in the eye of the beholder. I'd say that if he becomes a starter or even a high end backup, that may not be great, but it would be good. If he ends up a long term starter, then that is pretty great. But I could argue that less than a dozen QBs have had "great" careers for the last 50 years. It's just a matter of definition. There are certainly a number of QBs drafted higher than Sanders and with much higher expectations that have ended up as backups or out of the league altogether. If he has any kind of staying power, he's already overachieved according to many. 

 

[Mr. Scot]

2 minutes ago, Proudiddy said:

Didn’t say it does, Scot.  But as I pointed out earlier, most of the negativity in this thread is due to one of two reasons:

1) Guys that don’t want anyone competing with or taking the starting gig from their boy Bryce.

or 

2) Guys who dislike/hate Deion and Shedeur.  
 

Again, statistically, there are no grounds to pick Bryce as a starter over another QB over the last three seasons.  And statistically, what Shedeur is doing as a rookie is impressive thus far, whether he was Deion’s son or not.  So if it’s not statistics and the eye test, then why are people so fired up about it?  The tells are there.

I can't speak for anybody other than me on that.

For the record, I absolutely want someone to compete with Bryce.

As far as the statistical argument, even accepting that as authoritative (I don't, but you know that) you're still making two mistakes here:

1) A player's career stats aren't a good metric to judge how good they are right now.

2) Too small a sample size can very easily be misleading.

Lastly, why are people "so fired up about it"? Again, I can't speak for others, but for me it's simple... 

I don't think he's anything special.

And others may indeed feel the same without necessary having any nefarious ulterior motives.

[Mr. Scot]

4 minutes ago, TD alt said:

But that's just an opinion essentially based upon three games---basically nothing. 

As for "great" career, that's in the eye of the beholder. I'd say that if he becomes a starter or even a high end backup, that may not be great, but it would be good. If he ends up a long term starter, then that is pretty great. But I could argue that less than a dozen QBs have had "great" careers for the last 50 years. It's just a matter of definition. There are certainly a number of QBs drafted higher than Sanders and with much higher expectations that have ended up as backups or out of the league altogether. If he has any kind of staying power, he's already overachieved according to many. 

"Overachieved" might be a bit of a stretch...

You can name a lot of guys who've had great moments but mediocre at best careers, and that's what I believe will ultimately happen with Shedeur.

Right now, he's achieved a success level roughly equal to that of Dameyune Craig. 

[LinvilleGorge]

11 minutes ago, CRA said:

I think outside noise was a MASSIVE factor.  Teams don't want it.  And it gets really hard to have it for anyone that isn't your star player.  

I do think for example, if Skip Bayless didn't exist and that circus....NFL teams would have loved the utility player/locker room presence of a The Golden Calf of Bristol after he flamed out as a starting QB.  Same thing.  But he basically was deemed unsignable because a Taysom Hill role player can't be taking up the air waves/oxygen ,  press conferences and be a national spectacle every single day for a coach/staff to deal with. 

I mean, Saunders is literally a walking reality TV show 

Yep. The Golden Calf of Bristol, Kaepernick, late career Cam, Shedeur's draft slide... they all come down to the reality that teams don't want a distraction out of a guy they see as a likely a backup QB. And instead of the media acknowledging their major role in that situation, they just double down and make it worse and confirm teams' suspicions that yeah... not worth it.

[Mr. Scot]

18 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I think it basically came down to the NFL seriously doubting his ability to be a starting NFL QB and not wanting to bring on all the outside noise that he'd bring for a backup. Backup QBs are expected to be out of sight and out of mind. That doesn't exactly fit the wheelhouse of Shedeur and the Sanders clan, not to mention all the media clamoring about it. Then when he just blew off the entire pre-draft process (which he essentially flat out admitted to) I think he probably dropped completely off a lot of draft boards.

Outside noise is basically why there weren't 20 plus teams going after Deshaun Watson. 

Sanders "outside noise" isn't as serious, but it's also less likely to go away because he's related to it