How many games does it take...

[YourMomsLover]

This Thread really isn't about Cam!

It shouldnt be...but one question.

Is Cam wearing a bullet proof vest in your sig pic? If thats photo shopped, its a damn good job.

[Jangler]

This Thread really isn't about Cam!

So? He's elite isn't he?

[Tarheels23]

It shouldnt be...but one question.

Is Cam wearing a bullet proof vest in your sig pic? If thats photo shopped, its a damn good job.

Yep! He's Omar Little!

Look him up on youtube!

[antame]

It doesn't matter if his chance was fair or not, IMO. He got a chance, and he didn't really take advantage of it. Still, he'll likely be around next year to try to earn his place on the team. Will be interesting to see how he does.

You don't say, mav? We'd have been better off not starting a QB, man, no hyperbole. Remember the last days of Weinke when we literally played an entire game without a QB? Last year with Clausen was like that.

Begging the question, Mav, and you strike me as a level headed guy. Why do the Panthers do this? Any theories?

[teeray]

Obviously, QB is a huge need on this team. We'd all love to have an elite passer who is one of the best in the league... but that isn't always possible. Sometimes, you build around a guy who isn't elite but can still do some good things. But how do you decide who to build around?

How many games does it take for you to judge if a quarterback is a good enough player to be worth building around? Do they even need to play a pro game? How quickly can your mind change?

What criteria do you require?

This is a tough question MAV. I don't think you can put a number on it. If you have a guy that is struggling overall but every once in a while pulls out a 300+ yard multiple TD game I think you can give him the benefit of the doubt IF he is a first or second year player and maybe give him more time.

If you have a guy that starts maybe 6 games and is just completely inept all 6 games I probably wouldn't feel to bad not playing him a 7th game unless he proves he is worthy of it in practice. Practice is where he is going to earn his playing time.

If he has moments of brilliance in those six games or one/two good games in those six games you give him a chance to show he can do those things on a more consistent basis. But in order for me to have much faith he is going to have to show me on tape something for me to look at and say "I can work with that"

In terms of this team, it may be unfair to judge Clausen at this stage, but unfortunately for him that is the life of a second round QB. For me personally, he didn't show a whole lot for me to hang my hat on. I can't find a game and say "See if he could play more games like this one..." Therefore, he is going to have to earn that optimism back at practice.

Moore is a little different. He has shown some games that you can hang your hat on. He has had his moments. But he is going to be a 5 year vet and he hasn't shown he can be consistent. He will hopefully have another chance this year with a new coaching staff.

But in our case you could make a case for either one of these QBs deserving another opportunity. But at the same time you can't just sit back and hope. Kinda like if you are sitting at your house and your kids are in their beds asleep and you smell smoke, you don't sit back and hope that there isn't a fire; you go check it out.

So let's not hope there isn't two below average QBs on our roster, lets go ahead and put a fix in place (whether you think that is a vet or Newton/Gabbert).

Otherwise you end up right where we were with Delhomme, just waiting year after year and hoping it gets better.

[mav1234]

It's not about Cam Newton but in the middle of the season it could be.

Young QBs are expected to struggle a bit. The question is more much is acceptable, and at what point have you seen enough.

[ncmonzta]

I think 8-10 games is enough to determine if you should go further. If a guy can atleast show some promise I'd say a full season and a half. Jimmy was a guy I hoped would show something and he never really did. I forget what game it was, but Steve Smith was doing jumping jacks calling for the ball and Jimmy threw a horrible pass out of bounds. That and a couple of fumbled snaps and dramatically pathetic scrambles for a yard and a half. No one really looked like they really supported him at QB. I thank Fox for exposing Jimmy. The best I see for him is a backup job where he can come in a manage the game if he has to.

[mav1234]

You don't say, mav? We'd have been better off not starting a QB, man, no hyperbole. Remember the last days of Weinke when we literally played an entire game without a QB? Last year with Clausen was like that.

Begging the question, Mav, and you strike me as a level headed guy. Why do the Panthers do this? Any theories?

Really, last year was the perfect poo storm that combined a number of players not living up to expectations with a ton of injuries. The Weinke thing was similar if I recall correctly but that was a long time ago.

[antame]

Really, last year was the perfect poo storm that combined a number of players not living up to expectations with a ton of injuries.

It wasn't though, we simply didn't have a QB (and as usual, a 2nd receiving option), and everything came apart from there. I'll grant we had a lame duck coach and that had a large part in it. But on the field the Panthers aren't too far away from being a good team, aside from the gaping void at QB.

[teeray]

It's not about Cam Newton but in the middle of the season it could be.

Young QBs are expected to struggle a bit. The question is more much is acceptable, and at what point have you seen enough.

Was this directed at me?? If so I tried to make that post as little about Cam as I could. If that wasn't directed at me please ignore this post :p

[mav1234]

Was this directed at me?? If so I tried to make that post as little about Cam as I could. If that wasn't directed at me please ignore this post :p

No, someone said "this isn't about Cam Newton" earlier.

It wasn't though, we simply didn't have a QB (and as usual, a 2nd receiving option), and everything came apart from there. I'll grant we had a lame duck coach and that had a large part in it. But on the field the Panthers aren't too far away from being a good team, aside from the gaping void at QB.

Well, considering what Moore had done in his previous starts, I'm not surprised they turned to him. At the time I was astonished we didn't bring in a FA vet, but they didn't want to risk losing Pike.

[pantherj]

At the college level, most passing plays have at least 1 reciever who is clearly open. After watching several games featuring a college QB, I begin to get an idea of how well that QB can find the open or semi-open reciever. I don't trust college QBs who often miss the open reciever, and simply chuck the ball to a well covered reciever because that was his plan all along. I can tell when a QB is doing that crap, and it's a bad sign. Vision is critical.

Joe Montana was my hero as a kid, and he went through his progressions fast and knew who would be open and when. Then you have a guy like Gabbert, who is just staring at one reciever or running most of the time. Clausen was the same way last season minus the running, although Clausen actually would sometimes look at an open reciever further down field, and then not throw it to him. That nearly drove me crazy. Clausen looks at Gettis, he's open, then looks away from him and throws short. Ugh wth Jimmy? Gabbert didn't even see open recievers down the field on most passing plays. At least Clausen appeared to look at them, although I don't know what good it did him. In Clausen's defense, the o-line wasn't passing blocking well, so maybe he made a decision that he didn't want to end up like Moore. Poor Moore was good at making his progressions, but fear made him make idiotic decisions. And unfortunatley he was right to be fearful, the o-line was allowing him to take heavy shots, and he paid the price. Clausen avoided Moore's fate by throwing the ball short for the majority of plays. Poor Moore was trying to get the ball deep, but the lack of talent on the team, the o-line's pathetic pass blocking, and Moore's terror induced brain-farts prevented him from connecting. I actually like the way Moore plays when he's calm and the o-line is blocking well. He goes through his progressions and usually makes a good throw. But dear god, if the o-line allows him to get knocked around, ANYTHING can happen. He might throw it to Sir Purr. He actually started to throw the ball to me once, but I waved him off.

A good QB also needs decent to powerful arm strength. This is where Gabbert and Jake (before his injury) could excel. A strong arm can sometimes make up for a dumb throw. Most DBs don't have good hands, so putting more zip on the ball will sometimes prevent what otherwise would have been an INT. And of course you need to be able the throw deep with good velocity.

Balls/Confidence is another thing I look for in a good QB. Jake had balls before his injury, and he wasn't shy about going deep and throwing picks. He knew he needed to get the ball to Smith, even if his efforts resulted in a pick or 2. Clausen, on the other hand, simply refused to go deep. His nutts retreated back into his stomach, and he just kept throwing dinky short passes. No team feared him, and the Panthers became a joke as a result.

Abilty to extend a play - Big Ben is the best at it because he's hard to tackel and fearless. Newton is the same way, say what you want, but the guy doesn't play scared, and he doesn't go down easily.

Pocket Presence - Jake always cracked me up because he thought he had better pocket presence than he actaully did. I was always impressed with his abilty to keep his eyes down field and avoid pass rushers, but at the same time he would hold the ball out and be caught unaware by one monster or another. Clausen and Moore need more playing time to improve in this area.

So that's my take on what to look for in a QB.

[Marguide]

Good questions without a lot of easy answers.

In general, give them 2 years before you pull the plug, provided:

1) They are working hard to improve their craft

2) Improvement occurs over the long haul (maybe a 2 step forward, 1 step back progression)

3) They show the ability to learn

4) In flashes, they show the skills to make you feel really good about where they are headed

5) They maintain the support of their teammates

If they do all the above, but just aren't getting the job done after 2 years, pull the plug.

[antame]

Well, considering what Moore had done in his previous starts, I'm not surprised they turned to him. At the time I was astonished we didn't bring in a FA vet, but they didn't want to risk losing Pike.

Fair enough, Moore had some good starts, and I'll admit I had hopes there as well. But also a great many concerns and I'd hoped we had a plan B, which we clearly did not.

Pike? Of course, I wouldn't want to risk losing Pike.