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At the end of the day, that's what it boils down to. Win on the field and none of it will matter. Don't win and they're gonna be dunking on you like an old school NBA dunk contest when the MJs and Dominiques of the league actually participated. LOL

It's definitely the worst of the two options but WAY better than backing up the Brinks truck for mediocre.

Let us pray.

‘You play to win the game’ This isn’t Madden and I can assure life has zero guarantees Frankly, who knows what the world will be next month much less in 2027 or if any of us will still be here. …as George Allen said ‘the future is now’. …long range salary cap planning, yes. Long range draft scouting, yes. Everything else is right now As far as Young, time to produce over 17 games…current management owea him nothing

David Tepper was right when he bought the team. If you want to compete year in and year out, you need a HC, a GM, and a QB. Everything else is a want. Every organization and roster is going to have some weak spots. You just can't have weak spots in those three roles. A mediocre QB can get carried by a great team and a great coach but the burden becomes a helluva lot heavier when that mediocre QB is eating up a huge chunk of your cap space limiting your ability to put that great team around him. You're pretty much forced to have to knock it out of the park in the draft to keep replenishing the talent. You just afford to miss.

I’m not missing anything. I agree completely. I’ve given examples where 1 extra win cost us Herbert over Brown and 3 1sts from SF over Horn. Those meaningless wins didn’t improve our culture but they sure impacted our talent. Winning culture comes from actually winning and good coaching. Having the best players actually on our team helps.

It really doesn’t. Go look at the Lions draft history from 2021-2023. They turned around their team from joke to SB contender by picking 6 pro bowl players in 3 drafts. Look at the 2020-2023 Houston drafts. Started with 2 pro bowlers in 2020/2021 as a base and then added Stingley, Stroud and Will Anderson in the last two drafts along with a bunch more starters and depth. Houston had a terrible massage parlor culture and a couple greats drafts getting 5 stud players turned them into a winning culture. This slow burn win a little more and more works far less than just drafting well and in the cases above tanking a bit (trade Tunsil, Watson, Stafford, etc. and not after losing value) actually helped. There aren’t many, if any cases of bad teams trading up and being great. KC doesn’t count as Alex Smith had them in the playoffs every year.

You're missing what I'm saying. Every year where we tank our draft position winning a couple of meaningless games we always have quite a few people pounding their chests talking about how this is how you build a winning culture. Doesn't seem to be working. I think you build a winning culture by assembling the right coaching staff and roster pieces to win on the field.

There has to be growth every year, or a team is back tracking. Talking about what you are is definitely a lover mentality. As long as the team does their homework, there is always talent to be had in the draft, if they draft well, not dependent on draft position.

There in lies the rub. We don’t have a winning culture yet because we haven’t had a winning season since 2017 (8 years away now) and it’s weird how that’s not understood. I hate to say it, but Fitterer fuged U.S. hard by trying to win with a no talent team and trading away the house. Last year’s team, QB and HC all showed promise. The problem is that talent wise we are still miles from the top teams. Before people interject with the we played KC and Philly tough, the Matt Rhule and Bridgewater led meh team of 2020 lost to both 1 seed teams by the same one score margin and we had chances to win both of those games. That’s the NFL, bad teams often surprise the top teams. The KC team Rhule almost beat was far better than the 2024 Chiefs. Anyway, I’m legitimately worried that we are absolutely going to get stuck in that 7-10 to 10-7 range where we can win our crap division but we don’t have the talent to do anything else and we can easily have an bad injury year and our depth gets us an under .500 finish. Someone mentioned Detroit and until we have some of their drafts, like Gibbs, LaPorta, Branch and Campbell in 2023, we are going to be middle of the road for a while. Let’s hope the 2025 draft class is it.

The old Marty Hurney trick that never works. If we pay him like he's elite then he'll be elite!

It's hard not to notice that most of the fans pushing pro-tank or anti-culture takes also happen to be down on Bryce. Feels more connected than coincidence.

In Bilbao in Spain for game 1 so that will be a late night! Nice Memorial Day game as well. Think I prefer to play Toronto after being swept by Florida….but we are a different team this year

He isn't going to play better just because he got paid and he has already been in a SB with a great team that they lost.

VJ seems like a great pick for us tbh. Exactly the type of player we are missing. So if it’s him I’m excited.

Really hoping Bryce takes the next step in proving he can be a franchise QB. But if he doesn't, I really hope that the Panthers can accept it and move on.

I think the decision will be made one way or another after this season. That's how the contracts seem to work for qbs.

After watching our front office negotiate with Horn, does anyone really doubt Bryce will get a bag in '26 (or would we risk pushing that out to '27)? We used back to back first round picks on wr's and retooled the oline for him.

Because losing sticks to a franchise, it gets hard to shake it off. High draft picks don't always provide the soap that gets rid of the stinks. Win, win some more, win most of them, then win the big one. That's how good franchises progress.

Whew, you sure spent a lot of time explaining how a QB that you don't care much for sucks. You're into this way, way more than me. But I do have to say you've got a lot of teams listed there as not wanting him whose QBs have a fair amount of hype but a small amount of accomplishments.

We'll just have to see.

I've been hearing all about this "winning culture" for years while watching us piss away top shelf draft position with meaningless late season wins when we're already eliminated from the playoffs but being assured this is building "winning culture" just to inevitably suck again next year. With that said, I'll always take a playoff berth. Just make the dance and you have a chance to make some noise. But spare me the "winning culture" bullshit.

Winning culture trumps ALL. Here’s my way to long take: Last season this team started out breaking the sports books and being the lead pipe lock of the week. They finished by being a tough out for both SB teams. I don’t think they’ll pick up right where they left off, but for the first time in years they’re on the legitimate upswing. Honest to God NFL talent has been infused. Offense is already going to be good for 2-3 more 3rd down conversions (I don’t think anyone will argue that) a game over last year so I’ll go (very optimistically) 5-6 more points better than last year’s team. ADDED: A legit backup RB and a money WR who catches everything, along with 2 promising rooks. No significant losses (sorry Miles). KEYS: Can Dave bob and weave play calling if things aren’t working? Does protection continue to hold for Bryce. Did this team pick up dudes who know how to find the end zone or will the struggle of 3rd and goal continue. Defense. If they can force even 2 (hopefully 3) more stops a game on third down (not asking a lot, hopefully more), that’s good for -4 (optimistic) points for opposing teams. ADDED: legit run stuffers. Legit (appearing) edge guys. LOST: Clowney. Question: With legit 3-4 talent can Evero finally show what we have been VERY patiently waiting on? To me, EVERYTHING on defense hinges on Evero. Everything. Every position group was upgraded (still not good enough, but certainly improved). Losing Brown early and Luvu… completely and utterly devastated the run defense. Luvu put up one of the best seasons at LB this team has ever seen. His under appreciation by some fans was criminal. He alone was our 3 down stop machine. Brown was pretty much it up front. Those 2 held RBs in check long enough for safety help to arrive. Coaching: Halftime adjustments and no prevent defense. In a nutshell, that’s pretty much it. No cutesy offense to show off WRs/Bryce when it’s not working. Use your sledgehammers, Dave. There is finally veteran leadership and legit NFL talent. It’s going in the right direction (I couldn’t have been more wrong last offseason) to build a winning culture, but teams have to learn how to win, especially the games where nothing is going right (this team has NEVER been able to do that). They will still lose more close games than they win, and that alone is where it all hinges.

With his current level of play I'm quite content to not activate his 5th year option and let him walk away for free after year 4.

Self described anti-Bryce dude wants us to fail to take a major step forward Yeah that lines up.