What does Gettleman do about Cam

[Swan]

Wow, finally a thread with realistic people who don't slobber over Cam's nuts. I'm home.

[MHS831]

Well, you probably already know this, but Newton finished 26th in NFL passer rating and 29th in completion percentage.

 

Incidentally, he has never finished higher than 15th in NFL passer rating his entire career.

 

His mobility gives him a slight edge over other QB's who have nearly the same stats, but at the end of the day most NFL GM's coaches and media types don't believe that can continue on a long term basis.

 

But where Newton really fails is the eye test. He has glaring flaws as a QB that have been masked somewhat by his mobility, but these flaws have not gone away...indeed some of them seem to have grown.

 

No need to rehash those here...they are well known...but just to mention the tip of the iceberg, when have you ever heard a GM and a head coach talk about their QB's inconsistent fundamentals heading into his 5th full year as a starter???...I can't ever recall hearing anything like it concerning a player who has started 65 NFL games...

 

This thread is about what Gettlemen will do.  All we have is what we know and what Gettlemen has said.  However, if you present facts like these, it always precedes an anger-laced tirade that features a long list of reasons for the lack of production.  I call them excuses because they are not reasons exclusive to Cam and the Panthers.  That is where they lose focus--we are trying to compile the data Gettlemen will use at the negotiation table, and they get all emotional and start throwing excuses at you that cannot be measured.  They get pissed, which is a sign of subjectivity and emotion.  Gettlemen said that he will not get emotional about a player.   He has said that he will not overpay.  He agrees Cam is a franchise QB, but that does not mean he is going to pay him a lot of guaranteed money.  That is where the comments about inconsistency and his mechanics come in.  He has always been vague but honest during these pressers. 

 

Cam wins fans with his smile and his tremendous athleticism.  He runs for first downs and gets hot throwing the ball at times, and he slumps passing the ball at times.  HOWEVER,   It is not how good Gettlemen thinks Cam is, it is how good Cam makes the Panthers. For example, does anyone know how many of those runs were necessary because he missed a read or an open WR? How many last-minute wins do we get when the D plays lights out for 4 quarters and the Offense sputters for 3?    Cam gets down during games and seems to shut down.  Do people think Gettlemen has not observed that? 

 

 

When I see that list of QB rankings,  I have to consider that the bottom 10-12 qbs in those stats are terrible--nomads and fill-ins, rentals, etc.  Now how effective has our QB been?  It is scary to give him $100m or more.

 

Finally, how many running qbs got a ton of guaranteed money?  They are more prone to injury, so the risk is higher.  We can't pick and choose the variables we are going to use to measure Cam.   I think some people are Cam fans more than they are Panther fans.  Why else would you want your QB, who has never been rated higher than 15th (when the bottom half of the league is garbage for the most part) to be one of the highest paid players?  That hurts the team.  I want him to get a deal that is fair.  Gettlemen will see to it.

[cgarsmoker]

This thread is about what Gettlemen will do. All we have is what we know and what Gettlemen has said. However, if you present facts like these, it always precedes an anger-laced tirade that features a long list of reasons for the lack of production. I call them excuses because they are not reasons exclusive to Cam and the Panthers. That is where they lose focus--we are trying to compile the data Gettlemen will use at the negotiation table, and they get all emotional and start throwing excuses at you that cannot be measured. They get pissed, which is a sign of subjectivity and emotion. Gettlemen said that he will not get emotional about a player. He has said that he will not overpay. He agrees Cam is a franchise QB, but that does not mean he is going to pay him a lot of guaranteed money. That is where the comments about inconsistency and his mechanics come in. He has always been vague but honest during these pressers.

Cam wins fans with his smile and his tremendous athleticism. He runs for first downs and gets hot throwing the ball at times, and he slumps passing the ball at times. HOWEVER, It is not how good Gettlemen thinks Cam is, it is how good Cam makes the Panthers. For example, does anyone know how many of those runs were necessary because he missed a read or an open WR? How many last-minute wins do we get when the D plays lights out for 4 quarters and the Offense sputters for 3? Cam gets down during games and seems to shut down. Do people think Gettlemen has not observed that?

When I see that list of QB rankings, I have to consider that the bottom 10-12 qbs in those stats are terrible--nomads and fill-ins, rentals, etc. Now how effective has our QB been? It is scary to give him $100m or more.

Finally, how many running qbs got a ton of guaranteed money? They are more prone to injury, so the risk is higher. We can't pick and choose the variables we are going to use to measure Cam. I think some people are Cam fans more than they are Panther fans. Why else would you want your QB, who has never been rated higher than 15th (when the bottom half of the league is garbage for the most part) to be one of the highest paid players? That hurts the team. I want him to get a deal that is fair. Gettlemen will see to it.

Just to clarify your point.....are you saying that because Cam hasn't finished higher than 15th in QB rankings (passing stats??) that he's not a top 15 QB? Should he get top 15 money? Top 10 money? What's your opinion of a fair deal relative to other QB deals? Just curious....

[TheRed]

People like MHS are completely delusional about this.

The one year where Newton's entire WR core was gutted, he had offseason ankle surgery, had a rib injury, and a back injury, all the while starting behind one of the worst offensive lines the NFL has seen half the season, and missing two games. MHS wants to throw out everything Newton has accomplished simply because he wasn't "ranked" in the top of the league this season under the above circumstances, even though Newton and the team just won back to back division titles, and went to the playoffs in consecutive years, while also winning a playoff game along the way.

What's ironic about this is that people like MHS who now suddenly apparently give a poo about "rankings" were the very fans here who just a few years ago were the first ones to dismiss the numbers Cam was putting up in losing seasons, because as they put it "wins are all that matters". Well now that the team is winning, these people have to find something, hell anything, to bitch about in regards to Newton. It would be hilarious if it weren't so downright pathetic.

Some people just can't enjoy anything.

Ask Peyton Manning how much he cares about those regular season quarterback "rankings" after going one and done in the playoffs again.

[CelibatePimp]

Wouldn't surprise me if most of these wannabe billionaires who are clamoring for Cam to be paid whatever he wants are shopping at the Dollar Store because Walmart is too expensive.

 

The young QB convo seems to be between Luck and Wilson these days. I think Cam getting a big contract reaffirms to them that he is the best QB of all time.

[WOW!!]

newton doesn't have the leverage people think he has.

he is just as much a liability to the offense as he is an asset.

What are you smoking?

The kid on the field has been the offense and off the field he has generated more PuB for this team than any player in this teams history.

How many endorsements deals does he have now?

Every since he's been drafted he has been Mr. Panthers. .

National Media actually pays attention to us now..

He has generated more money and more attention then any Panthers has before. .

G-man needs to build around him and pay him..

[WOW!!]

Wow, finally a thread with realistic people who don't slobber over Cam's nuts. I'm home.

Wow why do Cam haters enjoy talking about oral sex acts with Cam so much..

[teeray]

This thread is about what Gettlemen will do.  All we have is what we know and what Gettlemen has said.  However, if you present facts like these, it always precedes an anger-laced tirade that features a long list of reasons for the lack of production.  I call them excuses because they are not reasons exclusive to Cam and the Panthers.  That is where they lose focus--we are trying to compile the data Gettlemen will use at the negotiation table, and they get all emotional and start throwing excuses at you that cannot be measured.  They get pissed, which is a sign of subjectivity and emotion.  Gettlemen said that he will not get emotional about a player.   He has said that he will not overpay.  He agrees Cam is a franchise QB, but that does not mean he is going to pay him a lot of guaranteed money.  That is where the comments about inconsistency and his mechanics come in.  He has always been vague but honest during these pressers. 

 

 

 

Since you think Gettleman is vague but honest (which I agree with you) and you agree that he is not overly emotional about Cam Newton I will let him answer your question over whether these are excuses or reality

 

 

We throw up 37 points against Cincinnati, so no one’s talking about it. And then the bottom fell out with the offensive line. I’m not making excuses; I’m talking about reality.

 

 

Do you think Gettleman is being vague but honest, or do you think he was just a hyper emotional Cam Newton fanboy?

 

The O-line issues aren't the imaginary creations of a Cam Newton nuthuggers to create excuses for him.  Having 4 new WRs and no OTAs and limited preseason is not creations of imaginations.  They are just facts.

 

It actually seems that the people some call "nuthuggers" are the rational big picture fans, while other endlessly nitpicking Cam Newton searching for every available flaw despite his successes seem much more emotional and irrational.

 

Similar to when I made one small response to your post and you telling me to fug off and calling me a smart ass.  It doesn't bother me, all is fair in internet message boards and respond however you feel is appropriate.   But you only embarrass yourself when you turn around and accuse others of calling people names and being too emotional

[cgarsmoker]

People like MHS are completely delusional about this.

The one year where Newton's entire WR core was gutted, he had offseason ankle surgery, had a rib injury, and a back injury, all the while starting behind one of the worst offensive lines the NFL has seen half the season, and missing two games. MHS wants to throw out everything Newton has accomplished simply because he wasn't "ranked" in the top of the league this season under the above circumstances, even though Newton and the team just won back to back division titles, and went to the playoffs in consecutive years, while also winning a playoff game along the way.

What's ironic about this is that people like MHS who now suddenly apparently give a poo about "rankings" were the very fans here who just a few years ago were the first ones to dismiss the numbers Cam was putting up in losing seasons, because as they put it "wins are all that matters". Well now that the team is winning, these people have to find something, hell anything, to bitch about in regards to Newton. It would be hilarious if it weren't so downright pathetic.

Some people just can't enjoy anything.

Ask Peyton Manning how much he cares about those regular season quarterback "rankings" after going one and done in the playoffs again.

Here's another tidbit about "rankings" that always seem to be forgotten. These rankings don't include rushing yards. I guess those offensive contributions aren't worthy of noting when you aren't being objective. It was stated that Cam never had a QB ranking higher than 15th. However.....No QB has rushed for more yards and TD's than Cam since he entered the league. It doesn't improve his QB ranking so people act like it isn't important or didn't play a part in the success of the offense.

[The NFL Shield At Midfield]

What's ironic about this is that people like MHS who now suddenly apparently give a poo about "rankings" were the very fans here who just a few years ago were the first ones to dismiss the numbers Cam was putting up in losing seasons, because as they put it "wins are all that matters". Well now that the team is winning, these people have to find something, hell anything, to bitch about in regards to Newton. It would be hilarious if it weren't so downright pathetic.

 

holy poo that drove me absolutely insane

 

you saw it out of the griffin and dalton fanboys all the time.  they'd blather on and on about how wins are all that matters and "hurf you take the stats i'll take them wins" when cam was on his record breaking tear.  then the panthers mounted a 12 win season in 2013 and they all backpedaled and started splitting hairs over this or that passing statistic to prove that cam actually sucked and it was all because of the defense and football was suddenly a team sport again.  it's probably even harder now for those poor guys since the panthers have actually won a playoff game and dalton/griffin haven't.

 

oh yeah, and another good one was how cam's appearance in the pro bowl as a rookie didn't matter because it was all a popularity contest and means nothing and the players don't even try and blah blah blah.  then he hucked a couple of interceptions and all of the sudden he's been "exposed" as a shitty quarterback because of an exhibition game.  it was just adorable.

[MHS831]

Just to clarify your point.....are you saying that because Cam hasn't finished higher than 15th in QB rankings (passing stats??) that he's not a top 15 QB? Should he get top 15 money? Top 10 money? What's your opinion of a fair deal relative to other QB deals? Just curious....

 

Great question.  I think you have to factor in Cam's upside into the equation.  I also think that, if he has not progressed as much as you would like in 4 seasons, it may be time to get a more effective QB coach.  I am not blaming the QB coach, however, I am simply making adjustments to get the most out of my investment.  If I were GM, I would offer Cam a deal in the $18 per year range for five seasons. I feel that Cam and Co will want over $20.  To reach that amount, however, there would be incentive clauses in it.  Then I would only guarantee about $40 million.  This is not my area (others are smarter about contract structure and comparable contracts, but I really think a running QB carries more risk than one that doesn't in the NFL, and I think a pocket-passing QB carries more value in the NFL because WR timing and linemen are more in tune with the QB's proximity.  Timing is everything.  I think most coaches, WRs, and OL prefer a pocket passer who can run, not a runner who can throw from the pocket.   Cam has the potential to change into that and the physical talent to become great at it, but he has not shown the growth they hoped for, in my opinion, which is why Gettlemen and RR are talking about his inconsistent behavior.

 

Many people on here say stupid crap like, "If you don't pay him $25m, he will go free agent and somebody will."  Sure they will.  There are desperate teams that overpay.  But Gettlemen is building a team geared toward winning on a regular basis, and you do not do that by overpaying.  Cam is NOT a $20m per season player.  If you take the average salary at his position, and he has been about average in terms of production, then you see where his real market value is.  However, there are some variables that you must consider:

 

1. He has either been involved in a lockout (year 1) or recovering from surgery (year 4) during 50% of the offseasons.  The Cam fans have not mentioned that, but it is huge.  On both occasions, he was not familiar with any WR he would be throwing to.

2. He has had some issues on the OL. Maybe these caused him to develop bad habits, but habits are formed through repetition.  Unless he is practicing these same bad habits, I do not see how 20 throws per week would cause that.  Still, he has attempted to stay in the pocket and transform, but the OL has been inconsistent.  This is a variable to consider, not an excuse for bad play.

3.  His WRs have always been below average.  However, timing is everything,  A WR drops passes and passes are overthrown a lot when that happens.  Cam has more unforced overthrows than drops or throwaway passes, so blaming them for all things bad about Cam is stupid.   Look what Lafell and Smith did in systems where timing is perfected and the QB is a pocket passer.   Both increased production by about 30-40%.  That is a huge difference. 

 

Gettlemen will argue that if you have to bring in an elite OL, an elite backfield, and an elite WR corps, how much can you afford to pay a qb who needs studs all around him to be successful?  Cam fans are stupid if they blame these things and then insist Cam is worth a megadeal with guaranteed $$.  If that happens, can Cam win shootouts?  Because we would not be able to pay our DL or LBs.  That is called Math.

I have a question for you, and I really want you to objectively consider the answer.

 

Q:  If Gettlemen thinks giving Cam Newton a huge deal that is largely guaranteed is the only way to keep him here, does he do it?

 

I don't think he would.  I think he tags Cam until he finds a QB.  Or, even more drastic, he takes the $20m and invests it in other players and finds a QB in a year or two.  I assure you that he has peeked at the QB crop in next year's draft.  It looks to be a good one.  Then there is the fact that he has a backup who was 2-0 last year with the same players Cam had to go 5-8-1.  Sure, it was Tampa Bay, but you could then argue that Anderson rarely works with the first team in practice.  Is the difference between Anderson and Newton worth $20m?  I am just thinking out loud as I guess he might. 

 

Many people here thing the contract for Cam is a gimme, that we should give him the debit card and move on.  They do not know Dave Gettlemen, who was hired because he is the Anit-Hurney.

[Swan]

Wow why do Cam haters enjoy talking about oral sex acts with Cam so much..

 

"Hate" is a strong word. I'll assume you're a "hugger".

[Swan]

People like MHS are completely delusional about this.

The one year where Newton's entire WR core was gutted, he had offseason ankle surgery, had a rib injury, and a back injury, all the while starting behind one of the worst offensive lines the NFL has seen half the season, and missing two games. MHS wants to throw out everything Newton has accomplished simply because he wasn't "ranked" in the top of the league this season under the above circumstances, even though Newton and the team just won back to back division titles, and went to the playoffs in consecutive years, while also winning a playoff game along the way.

What's ironic about this is that people like MHS who now suddenly apparently give a poo about "rankings" were the very fans here who just a few years ago were the first ones to dismiss the numbers Cam was putting up in losing seasons, because as they put it "wins are all that matters". Well now that the team is winning, these people have to find something, hell anything, to bitch about in regards to Newton. It would be hilarious if it weren't so downright pathetic.

Some people just can't enjoy anything.

Ask Peyton Manning how much he cares about those regular season quarterback "rankings" after going one and done in the playoffs again.

Yeah, we've heard the excuses a million times. That's why Gettleman would be smart to reserve his judgement for next year, when there's more clarity in what Cam brings to the team. Rankings-wise, Cam hasn't been very good. I don't think it matters much since our offense isn't geared for Newton to put up mind-blowing numbers. However, MHS is right in the fact that Cam is optimistically a top 10-15 quarterback. Over four years, we've still seen the glaring passing and decision-making issues, and can we realistically say that Cam is the leader of our offense, or its most valuable player? Simply, he's not worth 100m+. But, Gettleman may have to fork that over since it's hard to find a "decent" QB in the league nowadays on top of Newton's influence on local media, etc. 

 

The running QB issues are a real concern as well. As he ages, he must start playing in the pocket more, and he'll lose one facet of his unique arsenal (running). As a pocket passer, Cam must become more polished and consistent. Problems have been present ever since he entered the league, and last year, I thought he turned the corner. Unfortunately, he regressed this year. (I know, coaches, shitty WRs, injuries, etc.) I get it.

 

As of right now, he's not worth 100m+, but he'll get that contract for other reasons. When he led that comeback against NE last year, I thought he had "matured". He looked spectacular during the beginning of this season, truly remarkable, but that quickly faded. It's not that any of us "hate" Cam, it's simply that we find his lack of consistency and improvement over four years to be frustrating. This is a team discussion thread, and we are providing opinions on a specific player; no need for all the animosity. 

[Swan]

Great question.  I think you have to factor in Cam's upside into the equation.  I also think that, if he has not progressed as much as you would like in 4 seasons, it may be time to get a more effective QB coach.  I am not blaming the QB coach, however, I am simply making adjustments to get the most out of my investment.  If I were GM, I would offer Cam a deal in the $18 per year range for five seasons. I feel that Cam and Co will want over $20.  To reach that amount, however, there would be incentive clauses in it.  Then I would only guarantee about $40 million.  This is not my area (others are smarter about contract structure and comparable contracts, but I really think a running QB carries more risk than one that doesn't in the NFL, and I think a pocket-passing QB carries more value in the NFL because WR timing and linemen are more in tune with the QB's proximity.  Timing is everything.  I think most coaches, WRs, and OL prefer a pocket passer who can run, not a runner who can throw from the pocket.   Cam has the potential to change into that and the physical talent to become great at it, but he has not shown the growth they hoped for, in my opinion, which is why Gettlemen and RR are talking about his inconsistent behavior.

 

Many people on here say stupid crap like, "If you don't pay him $25m, he will go free agent and somebody will."  Sure they will.  There are desperate teams that overpay.  But Gettlemen is building a team geared toward winning on a regular basis, and you do not do that by overpaying.  Cam is NOT a $20m per season player.  If you take the average salary at his position, and he has been about average in terms of production, then you see where his real market value is.  However, there are some variables that you must consider:

 

1. He has either been involved in a lockout (year 1) or recovering from surgery (year 4) during 50% of the offseasons.  The Cam fans have not mentioned that, but it is huge.  On both occasions, he was not familiar with any WR he would be throwing to.

2. He has had some issues on the OL. Maybe these caused him to develop bad habits, but habits are formed through repetition.  Unless he is practicing these same bad habits, I do not see how 20 throws per week would cause that.  Still, he has attempted to stay in the pocket and transform, but the OL has been inconsistent.  This is a variable to consider, not an excuse for bad play.

3.  His WRs have always been below average.  However, timing is everything,  A WR drops passes and passes are overthrown a lot when that happens.  Cam has more unforced overthrows than drops or throwaway passes, so blaming them for all things bad about Cam is stupid.   Look what Lafell and Smith did in systems where timing is perfected and the QB is a pocket passer.   Both increased production by about 30-40%.  That is a huge difference. 

 

Gettlemen will argue that if you have to bring in an elite OL, an elite backfield, and an elite WR corps, how much can you afford to pay a qb who needs studs all around him to be successful?  Cam fans are stupid if they blame these things and then insist Cam is worth a megadeal with guaranteed $$.  If that happens, can Cam win shootouts?  Because we would not be able to pay our DL or LBs.  That is called Math.

I have a question for you, and I really want you to objectively consider the answer.

 

Q:  If Gettlemen thinks giving Cam Newton a huge deal that is largely guaranteed is the only way to keep him here, does he do it?

 

I don't think he would.  I think he tags Cam until he finds a QB.  Or, even more drastic, he takes the $20m and invests it in other players and finds a QB in a year or two.  I assure you that he has peeked at the QB crop in next year's draft.  It looks to be a good one.  Then there is the fact that he has a backup who was 2-0 last year with the same players Cam had to go 5-8-1.  Sure, it was Tampa Bay, but you could then argue that Anderson rarely works with the first team in practice.  Is the difference between Anderson and Newton worth $20m?  I am just thinking out loud as I guess he might. 

 

Many people here thing the contract for Cam is a gimme, that we should give him the debit card and move on.  They do not know Dave Gettlemen, who was hired because he is the Anit-Hurney.

Really good point.