Gil Brandt says Let KK Walk...

[Cpt slay a ho]

We're doing things ass backwards, we're releasing players before we find replacements. Relying heavily on our draft picks to pick up the slack in the leadership department and on field production.


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[CRA]

4 hours ago, panthers55 said:

So who has he extended on defense besides Luke, Davis  and Coleman? There are 22 starters on a team and 11 on defense. you have to do better than extend 4 or 5 guys and think things are great. He signed a few no brainers and never brings in a quality free agent he pays good money for. You come to Carolina to shine in order to go elsewhere or on a 1 or 2 year prove it contract if you struggled or were injured in order to get paid by someone else. You wonder why most folks aren't loyal to you? Davis is fiercely loyal because Richardson was loyal to him when he didn't have to after repeated injuries. You think Gettleman would have shown him the same respect or simply shown him the door? Gettleman is breeding a culture of disloyalty, mistrust, and negative feelings with many.players. Now that we aren't on top watch that bite us in the butt this year. 

this

also, the very first Gettlemen red flag was Jordan Gross.  The longer he stays the more that same issue shows itself.

[thefuzz]

2 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

You are wrong about this team having veterans leadership in all the core spots. It isn't just leadership in general because players spend most of their time with their own cadre of position players. Where is the leadership in the secondary?  The rookies, Coleman, Boston? Please... the closest thing we have is Johnson and the improvement over the past few weeks might be picking him up.

Without Kalil, Oher and even Turner, where is the leadership on the OLine? 

Who is providing leadership with the receivers? Ginn? What about when he is gone next year? Olsen to an extent but I don't know if TE and WR send all their time together. 

Leadership is on the field when guys are thinking here we go again and they look into the leaders eyes and they see confidence and the we got this covered look back. That is missing from core groups which are hurting us big time. In addition to your core long termers you need veterans with experience to fill gaps and needs. Something he did in the past but screwed up this past offseason. Gettleman hasn't screwed up totally yet but he seems headed in a concerning direction and you heard it here first. I look at the long term not just the immediate. Who predicted the problems we were going to have? Yeah, this guy. Now I am telling you if Gettleman doesnt stop the tough guy act he will drive agents and players away to the point we will have to rely on the draft because few people will want to play here. That was what started Hurney's Denise in 2010 when Richardson went on the cheap.

Bolded in order:

1:  I never said we had leadership in all the core areas, no team does.

2:  How may leaders do you need on the O line?  Kalil is one of the best o linemen in the league, and Turner, Oher, and Norwell aren't spring chickens any longer either.

3:  I was one who beat the drum for Cotch when he was here, we needed and still need some leadership in the WR corps.

4:  If you are talking about on the field leadership, and the secondary's inability to look into Luke and TD's eyes and see it, then they are blind. If the WR's can't look into the eyes of Cam, Kalil, Olsen, and Stew and not have confidence, then it's not going to happen. Not talking about the meeting room, you brought up the field.

 

But before we get too far off the rails, back to the original point......DG isn't running off all the core players on this team, in fact he has extended every singe "leader" of this team that warranted an extension.  He even tried to keep Norman here last season, until he was sure a reasonable long term deal couldn't be reached.

I'm not patting DG on the back here, this was his worst offseason but it wasn't nearly as bad as many on here make it out to be.

 

 

[thefuzz]

4 minutes ago, Cpt slay a ho said:

We're doing things ass backwards, we're releasing players before we find replacements. Relying heavily on our draft picks to pick up the slack in the leadership department and on field production.


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Who exactly have we released before we found replacements, outside of Smith?

[CRA]

31 minutes ago, thefuzz said:

We will have to disagree about Norman being a "core" guy, hell he stayed in Ron's doghouse for years until he started to play within the system.  Great player? No doubt.  Leader?  Eh....not to me.  But to each his own.

As to Peanut, I think he would still be here were it not for the late season ACL.

Harper.....my guess.....DG had a long talk with Ron, and Ron probably told him Tre was ready to step up, and we had a playmaker beside him in Coleman.  Who has underperformed like the rest of the Panthers this season.

DG may let KK walk...I don't think that he will, but KK may push him into a corner, and I would prefer not to overpay for his services...I would prefer to let him go, resign Turner, Norwell, and get a FA tackle..but to each their own.

I think this team has plenty of veteran leadership, what we didn't have plenty of this season was execution, good play calls,  luck, and health.

In fact, I'm not sure there is a team in the league with better talent at the top leadership positions than the Carolina Panthers.  Cam, Kalil, Olsen, TD, and Luke.  Those are all top players at their positions, really good leaders, and really good men.

2015 Norman was a leader in the same sense Steve Smith was the bulk  his career.

89 is a fictional character at this point, he lead and motivated by what he did between the white lines.   That is how he lead.  That is what Norman did in 2015.  It was big, just like what 89 did most of his career. Not everyone leads like a Thomas Davis....people try to blur 89 as the overall great leader that took place in the locker room and off field.   89 basically did what 2015 Norman did over a career (he honed it year after year and got better at it which Norman is still learning)

[thefuzz]

2 minutes ago, CRA said:

2015 Norman was a leader in the same sense Steve Smith was the bulk  his career.

89 is a fictional character at this point, he lead and motivated by what he did between the white lines.   That is how he lead.  That is what Norman did in 2015.  It was big, just like what 89 did most of his career. Not everyone leads like a Thomas Davis....people try to blur 89 as the overall great leader that took place in the locker room and off field.   89 basically did what 2015 Norman did over a career (he honed it year after year and got better at it which Norman is still learning)

Smith was a great player, he is probably the best Panther to date.  However, I don't consider anyone who beats/cheapshots teammates at practice and in the film room to be a "leader".  Sorry, I just can't.

He may have inspired players, he may have pumped up players, but IMO he wasn't a leader.  He often said he wasn't there to be a mentor nor a leader.....and he wasn't, at least not to me.  That said, there aren't many WR's that fit the "leader" role for me anyway.

 

[thefuzz]

1 minute ago, stbugs said:

You are fighting a losing battle. These people hate DG to the core and are unwilling to look at things in any other way than we have no team leaders any more, i.e. Tillman and Harper had more to do with our success than TD, Luke and Cam, and we have poo for talent and DG just wants to run all the players off to other teams.

Between missed FGs, pick 6s and end zone INTs, we've lost 5 games we could have easily won. Sure doesn't make me feel good about things, but I don't understand the hate for the GM when we have played with and should have beaten some of the top teams with all the injuries we've had.

Haha, true statement.

 

[CRA]

31 minutes ago, thefuzz said:

Bolded in order:

1:  I never said we had leadership in all the core areas, no team does.

2:  How may leaders do you need on the O line?  Kalil is one of the best o linemen in the league, and Turner, Oher, and Norwell aren't spring chickens any longer either.

3:  I was one who beat the drum for Cotch when he was here, we needed and still need some leadership in the WR corps.

4:  If you are talking about on the field leadership, and the secondary's inability to look into Luke and TD's eyes and see it, then they are blind. If the WR's can't look into the eyes of Cam, Kalil, Olsen, and Stew and not have confidence, then it's not going to happen. Not talking about the meeting room, you brought up the field.

 

But before we get too far off the rails, back to the original point......DG isn't running off all the core players on this team, in fact he has extended every singe "leader" of this team that warranted an extension.  He even tried to keep Norman here last season, until he was sure a reasonable long term deal couldn't be reached.

I'm not patting DG on the back here, this was his worst offseason but it wasn't nearly as bad as many on here make it out to be.

 

 

Gettlemen forced Gross into an early retirement...and Gross was vocally pissed. 

He was one of our biggest leaders and had gas in the tank.  We still haven't come close to recovering from that blow. 

[CPantherKing]

6 hours ago, thefuzz said:

DG and RR thought this team was good enough to compete without Norman.....and truth be told, almost every single poster on this board did as well.

The 'Trust in Gettleman' fans followed the company line. The realist fans knew exactly what was about to happen based on historical data.

I believe the basis for the destruction of the secondary was that if the 49ers could do it in 1981 with 3 rookies and a veteran, then so could the Panthers. You had a better chance of putting your life savings down on a Roulette wheel spin in Vegas and walking away happy.

Bradberry, Worley, Boston, and Coleman with Bene, McClain and Sanchez were not even close to what the 49ers had in 1981. Ronnie Lott was viewed as an instant impact / sure bet coming out of USC and was taken 8th overall in the draft. Bradberry was viewed as a rough small school project who was a reach as a second round pick. Dwight Hicks was an all pro veteran FS. Boston was an inconsistent 3rd year FS who struggled to maintain his responsibility. Eric Wright was a solid prospect selected 40th overall who was very physical and strong against the run. Worley was a reach in the 3rd round who lacked skill against the run. Carlton Williamson was a large SS who was very physical in the box. Kurt Coleman is a small SS who takes poor angles and finds it difficult to get the ball carrier down with a solid hit.

Also, the 49ers selected their 3 rookie DBs with the 8th, 40th, and 65th pick. The Panthers DBs were chosen with the 62nd, 77th, and 141st pick. The 49ers also took a DT with the 36th pick compared to the Panthers 30th pick of Butler. That DT for the 49ers was a bust.

A deep talent pool of DBs in the draft only comes around once a decade - twice if we are lucky. The 2016 draft was not one of those drafts and we knew that before the 2016 off season began.

It was very clear how much of a pipe dream this defense would be with the massive overhaul in the secondary and the lack of any talent at DE. Anyone seeing it any other way was just a victim of wishful thinking - including Gettleman and Rivera.

Either Gettleman and Rivera were duped by their own thinking and it was a massive blunder, or they knew what to expect and lied to everyone with a company line.

 

[Mvp2014]

I agree with him

[Bronn]

49 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Everyone is talking about Fletcher Cox... sure, let's do.

1st year (only 9 starts) - 32 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 2 hurries

2nd year - 32 tackles, 3 sacks, 13 hurries

3rd year - 48 tackles, 4 sacks, 13 hurries

4th year - 50 tackles, 9.5 sacks, 33 hurries (4th in the league)

HUGE contract

This year - 19 tackles, 4 sacks, 16 hurries

Now, I'm normally not one to focus too heavily on stats, especially for a DT.  But, penetrating three technique DTs are supposed to rack up stats. Especially the elite ones. Is Cox worth what the Eagles paid? Time will tell, but the early returns aren't that great. Last season looks like a bit of an anomaly for Cox in terms of QB pressure and that's what the Eagles paid him for. Tackle numbers had been solid for the past 3 seasons and very good in the past two.  They're way down.

Short's stats for comparison:

1st year (0 starts) - 19 tackles, 1.5 sacks, 3 hurries

2nd year (9 starts) - 22 tackles, 3.5 sacks, 5 hurries

3rd year - 36 tackles, 11 sacks, 23 hurries

This year - 18 tackles, 3 sacks, 8 hurries

Everything about Short's season last year looks like an anomaly. Last season blinded me too and I was ready to call him the best three technique in football, but the reality is that he isn't even close. If it takes big bucks, LET SHORT WALK.

I've been very critical of Gettleman for this season and I think he definitely deserves a pretty good deal of criticism, but in terms of going with a three technique DT in the 1st? I think there may be some method to his madness.  Looking at that stat breakdown and based on contract negotiations with Short this past offseason, I think there's a pretty good chance Gettleman already knew he was letting Short walk after this season.

I really don't think you can look at stats alone, especially for lineman.

I think if you took a consensus, the other 31 teams would value Kawann Short as at least a top 10 4-3 DT, and I think more than half of those teams would say he was top 5.

[Mvp2014]

5 minutes ago, CPantherKing said:

The 'Trust in Gettleman' fans followed the company line. The realist fans knew exactly what was about to happen based on historical data.

I believe the basis for the destruction of the secondary was that if the 49ers could do it in 1981 with 3 rookies and a veteran, then so could the Panthers. You had a better chance of putting your life savings down on a Roulette wheel spin in Vegas and walking away happy.

Bradberry, Worley, Boston, and Coleman with Bene, McClain and Sanchez were not even close to what the 49ers had in 1981. Ronnie Lott was viewed as an instant impact / sure bet coming out of USC and was taken 8th overall in the draft. Bradberry was viewed as a rough small school project who was a reach as a second round pick. Dwight Hicks was an all pro veteran FS. Boston was an inconsistent 3rd year FS who struggled to maintain his responsibility. Eric Wright was a solid prospect selected 40th overall who was very physical and strong against the run. Worley was a reach in the 3rd round who lacked skill against the run. Carlton Williamson was a large SS who was very physical in the box. Kurt Coleman is a small SS who takes poor angles and finds it difficult to get the ball carrier down with a solid hit.

Also, the 49ers selected their 3 rookie DBs with the 8th, 40th, and 65th pick. The Panthers DBs were chosen with the 62nd, 77th, and 141st pick. The 49ers also took a DT with the 36th pick compared to the Panthers 30th pick of Butler. That DT for the 49ers was a bust.

A deep talent pool of DBs in the draft only comes around once a decade - twice if we are lucky. The 2016 draft was not one of those drafts and we knew that before the 2016 off season began.

It was very clear how much of a pipe dream this defense would be with the massive overhaul in the secondary and the lack of any talent at DE. Anyone seeing it any other way was just a victim of wishful thinking - including Gettleman and Rivera.

Either Gettleman and Rivera were duped by their own thinking and it was a massive blunder, or they knew what to expect and lied to everyone with a company line.

 

I think the biggest thing is they expected the Dline to ball out.  poo we couldn't even stop the run for the first 6 weeks much less protect our shitty secondary.  

 

[CRA]

1 hour ago, Bronn said:

I really don't think you can look at stats alone, especially for lineman.

I think if you took a consensus, the other 31 teams would value Kawann Short as at least a top 10 4-3 DT, and I think more than half of those teams would say he was top 5.

But KK on a well rounded good D? He will be dominant. 

People for some reason think if you put KK on a team whose secondary can't challenge WRs and okay DE play he can still excel.

our CBs focus is on not allowing the big play not challenging WRs.  Can't really blame them but people act like that has no  impact on a pass rushers ability to create. 

[Cpt slay a ho]

Who exactly have we released before we found replacements, outside of Smith?

D will, Norman,smith, gross, gamble, Hardy.

Although we didn't release Hardy we still haven't found a decent replacement

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