a bloo bloo

[pantherphan96]

6 minutes ago, TheRed said:

Right. To be clear I never said losing Norman is the sole reason we only won 6 games. It was one factor in a bigger picture of bullshit though.

We also lost too much veteran presence.

But I hope we can both agree that those first 2 draft picks addressing the loss of Norman could have been used to address the offense and perhaps helped in preventing us from missing the postseason.

 

Quote

Also, if you can actually defend throwing away an entire draft to replace one defensive player while our offense fell off a cliff, you lack any basic fundamental understanding of managing a football roster.

A mischaracterization of the situation at best. The reason we missed the playoffs in 2016 were: multiple losses by one possession and terrible in-game management by Rivera/Shula (3 games specifically we lost- KC, OAK, first TB game) that instead could have had us at 9-6 going into the Tampa game week 17. 

Our only loss on the offensive side from that great 2015 year was Cotchery and we had KB coming back. Everyone thought the offense was gonna be great with Cam's favorite target back in the fold. Instead our OL was decimated by injuries, the playcalling remained predictable, and the secondary suffered because thats what happens when you have to play 2 rookie CBs.

Maybe you can argue the Vernon Butler pick wasnt great considering our situation in the secondary-- but if drafting him allows us to let Star walk so we can resign other major contributors or get a solid FA, then it was the right move.

[The Lobo]

2 hours ago, frash.exe said:

Word

[TheRed]

1 minute ago, pantherphan96 said:

 

A mischaracterization of the situation at best. The reason we missed the playoffs in 2016 were: multiple losses by one possession and terrible in-game management by Rivera/Shula (3 games specifically we lost- KC, OAK, first TB game) that instead could have had us at 9-6 going into the Tampa game week 17. 

Our only loss on the offensive side from that great 2015 year was Cotchery and we had KB coming back. Everyone thought the offense was gonna be great with Cam's favorite target back in the fold. Instead our OL was decimated by injuries, the playcalling remained predictable, and the secondary suffered because thats what happens when you have to play 2 rookie CBs.

Maybe you can argue the Vernon Butler pick wasnt great considering our situation in the secondary-- but if drafting him allows us to let Star walk so we can resign other major contributors or get a solid FA, then it was the right move.

Maybe you can argue the Butler pick wasn't great?

Goodness gracious man.

You've got a whole lot of rationale for mediocrity there. Do you.

[KillerKat]

Butler wasn't the right pick. Giving KK an extension makes it worse since they both play the same position and Butler isn't a NT. The pick would've been better if we didn't do that.

[pantherphan96]

4 minutes ago, TheRed said:

Maybe you can argue the Butler pick wasn't great?

Goodness gracious man.

You've got a whole lot of rationale for mediocrity there. Do you.

Maybe because I don't judge a draft class after 2 years. Especially when he's barely played. As I said, if he ends up being Star's replacement and we can sign a playmaker on offense or in the secondary as a result, its a good pick. 40-23-1 during Gettleman's tenure, easily the best 4 yr stretch in franchise history.

Mediocrity is the Carolina Panthers entire history- this franchise before 2013 is basically a playoff season followed by 8-8/7-9 and a few terrible years since its inception.

[TheRed]

Just now, pantherphan96 said:

Maybe because I don't judge a draft class after 2 years. Especially when he's barely played. As I said, if he ends up being Star's replacement and we can sign a playmaker on offense or in the secondary as a result, its a good pick. 40-23-1 during Gettleman's tenure, easily the best 4 yr stretch in franchise history.

Mediocrity is the Carolina Panthers entire history- this franchise before 2013 is basically a playoff season followed by 8-8/7-9 and a few terrible years since its inception.

Let me break it down for you from a different perspective. I know you aren't an unintelligent oaf like some other posters here. We can disagree without eviscerating each other, right?

Look, the last several years have revolved around how stacked we supposedly are along the DL with it being anchored by our DT's. Yes? Well here's the issue, we've poured a poo ton of resources into that, and our arch rival in one offseason (and supposedly no cap space) goes from being a joke to manhandling us. What gives? Why aren't they stockpiling DT's? Oh, they have an elite pass rushing DE, and they drafted an elite CB? What sorcery.

I like you man. But loosen your grip from the status quo a bit, and open your eyes.

[The Lobo]

30 minutes ago, TheRed said:

Let me break it down for you from a different perspective. I know you aren't an unintelligent oaf like some other posters here. We can disagree without eviscerating each other, right?

Look, the last several years have revolved around how stacked we supposedly are along the DL with it being anchored by our DT's. Yes? Well here's the issue, we've poured a poo ton of resources into that, and our arch rival in one offseason (and supposedly no cap space) goes from being a joke to manhandling us. What gives? Why aren't they stockpiling DT's? Oh, they have an elite pass rushing DE, and they drafted an elite CB? What sorcery.

I like you man. But loosen your grip from the status quo a bit, and open your eyes.

That’s true, we all talked about how the saints have been cap strapped for the last three offseason, yet they always sign quality FAs (minus Byrd, he didn’t pan out for them) maybe it’s time we start doing the same

[Snake]

46 minutes ago, KillerKat said:

Butler wasn't the right pick. Giving KK an extension makes it worse since they both play the same position and Butler isn't a NT. The pick would've been better if we didn't do that.

Kinda funny because he played NT most of this season but let's just ignore facts and all. 

 

[t96]

53 minutes ago, TheRed said:

Maybe you can argue the Butler pick wasn't great?

This'll be the big year we find out for him if/when Star walks.

[t96]

4 minutes ago, Snake said:

Kinda funny because he played NT most of this season but let's just ignore facts and all. 

 

He's clearly Star's replacement if/when he walks. How he makes out in a larger role, we will see this year... I anticipate we won't lose a beat with him instead of Star. Star is a very solid, and important, player but much much easier to replace than a guy like KK. Butler, in his very limited snaps, has shown some huge potential. Will be very interesting to see how he puts it all together this year.

[KillerKat]

14 minutes ago, Snake said:

Kinda funny because he played NT most of this season but let's just ignore facts and all. 

 

Which is hard to believe since Love is the backup NT and that would mean if he was playing it "most of the season" Star would've been off the field most of the time which wasn't the case and if Love and Butler were on the field, Butler wasn't the NT.

Also Butler played the lowest number of snaps this season at 294 while Love was at 377,  Star at 586, and KK at 701. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/car/2017-snap-counts.htm

[Proudiddy]

3 hours ago, TheRed said:

Then let your only legit speed threat walk 2 separate times in 3 years in favor of a jag only to watch it blow up in your face both times.

Executive of the year!

And use the money you fought tooth and nail with Norman's agent on (resulting in his release) on Matt "Speedbump" Kalil.

#buildingadynasty #salarycapguru

[pantherphan96]

1 hour ago, TheRed said:

Let me break it down for you from a different perspective. I know you aren't an unintelligent oaf like some other posters here. We can disagree without eviscerating each other, right?

Look, the last several years have revolved around how stacked we supposedly are along the DL with it being anchored by our DT's. Yes? Well here's the issue, we've poured a poo ton of resources into that, and our arch rival in one offseason (and supposedly no cap space) goes from being a joke to manhandling us. What gives? Why aren't they stockpiling DT's? Oh, they have an elite pass rushing DE, and they drafted an elite CB? What sorcery.

I like you man. But loosen your grip from the status quo a bit, and open your eyes.

I'm not trying to be a dick either, and I respect the fact that unlike some of the posters here you arent quick to throw blame solely on Cam, but its not as simple as you seem to make it out to be.

Aints got a stud CB in Lattimore, but they had the 11th pick in the draft- compared to us having the 30th pick when we needed CBs in the 2016 draft. Jalen Ramsey, Eli Apple, Hargreaves, and 2 other CBs had already been taken before our 1st round pick. No need to reach in that scenario, so we ended up stacking the DL even more looking towards the possibility that we might lose one of Star or KK considering they both have played great so far.

Wouldn't make sense to draft another CB in the 1st round of last years draft after Bradberry had a promising rookie season and we had 2 other young CBs that would hopefully grow into the CB spot opposite him. And after seeing how weak we were outside of KB and Olsen on offense CMC was the right pick.

If our scheme can be improved on both sides of the ball (not an unreasonable expectation), all we really need is some more stability in the secondary- improvements from Bradberry and hopefully Worley as well as a new safety to replace Coleman/Adams-- as well as seeing what we have in young talent like Butler, Daeshon Hall, Corn Elder, Samuel, etc.

Do I wish things worked out differently? Sure. But there is a difference from being stuck to the status quo and seeing the limitations of what can be accomplished in a short timeframe with the resources available.

[TheRed]

1 minute ago, pantherphan96 said:

I'm not trying to be a dick either, and I respect the fact that unlike some of the posters here you arent quick to throw blame solely on Cam, but its not as simple as you seem to make it out to be.

Aints got a stud CB in Lattimore, but they had the 11th pick in the draft- compared to us having the 30th pick when we needed CBs in the 2016 draft. Jalen Ramsey, Eli Apple, Hargreaves, and 2 other CBs had already been taken before our 1st round pick. No need to reach in that scenario, so we ended up stacking the DL even more looking towards the possibility that we might lose one of Star or KK considering they both have played great so far.

Wouldn't make sense to draft another CB in the 1st round of last years draft after Bradberry had a promising rookie season and we had 2 other young CBs that would hopefully grow into the CB spot opposite him. And after seeing how weak we were outside of KB and Olsen on offense CMC was the right pick.

If our scheme can be improved on both sides of the ball (not an unreasonable expectation), all we really need is some more stability in the secondary- improvements from Bradberry and hopefully Worley as well as a new safety to replace Coleman/Adams-- as well as seeing what we have in young talent like Butler, Daeshon Hall, Corn Elder, Samuel, etc.

Do I wish things worked out differently? Sure. But there is a difference from being stuck to the status quo and seeing the limitations of what can be accomplished in a short timeframe with the resources available.

Oh, I'm the biggest Cam homer here if you believe some. Meh.

Anyways. Whether we agree in principle or not, the fact is the division is improving around us. We barely squeaked by the joke Bucs to back into the playoffs on top of losing to the Saints 3 times. And our rapidly dwindling future with this core depends on our ability to shift gears a bit. We don't need to pull a full 180 in our philosophy, but we do unequivocally need to adapt better.