7th round pick, NFL minimum salary PK Harrison Butker

[Toomers]

8 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

The operative phrase is "would have." Hindsight is 20/20 and depends on some factors that we can't say would have been equal had the two swapped places. 

You also miss out on the kick off factor, which is a big deal. Rivera (and most coaches in the NFL) prefer kickoffs to result in a touchback. In that area, Gano's leg was consistently better than Butker's and that bore out over the season. Carolina had 76.92% touchbacks on kickoffs (3rd best in the league) while KC had 62.1 % (16th in the league). In preseason Butker wasn't as effective kicking it deep and Gano had just come off of a year with an 85% rate and best in the league. 

That's not a small factor and it has historically been a big deal for the Panthers, even going back as far as the days of Rhys Lloyd holding down a roster spot just to do that one thing (and back when it still brought them out to the 20... an even bigger bonus).

Still the Butker bus has moved on. Right now, in real life, we're going in to the off season with Gano as our best option because he has a decent history and because there's really not a lot of good options out there. And if you think we're going to drop another draft pick on a kicker -- well, I won't rule that out completely either. 

But man, let Butker go. It's getting to be like a bad break-up. She's moved on, she's got her own life now, she's really seeing someone else, come on, let it go, look ahead and quit looking behind.

 

So if we replace Gano, and eat another 4.6M, do we get to complain again? How about when the season starts? When we overpay him again, and just keep adding to the mistake? 

 So your position is we are paying 3M more a season for a couple touchbacks? That about it? Your”cherrypicking” really reached that? 

 And as far as hindsight, would you like to see the Gano signing thread where many said this exact scenario would happen? It’s not hindsight if you predict it. 

  

[Cpt slay a ho]

from what I gather there’s an outrage we didn’t choose a younger cheaper kicker over statistical one of the best kickers in the league before injury to save 2-3 million in cap space. Still not understanding, considering hindsight is 20/20 how this was a no brainer at the time and why it’s such a big deal now 

[Khyber53]

Guys, I give up. I can't get through your narrative. I don't agree that Ron and Marty suck (even though I don't think everything they do is good), and I can't join your club without drinking that Kool-Aid. 

Good luck.

[Toomers]

1 minute ago, Cpt slay a ho said:

from what I gather there’s an outrage we didn’t choose a younger cheaper kicker over statistical one of the best kickers in the league before injury to save 2-3 million in cap space. Still not understanding, considering hindsight is 20/20 how this was a no brainer at the time and why it’s such a big deal now 

It’s been clearly explained many times over. If he’s been so good, why are his career numbers so below average? One good season where he didn’t make a 50 yarder? He’s been making too much for a long time. 

  At what point does throwing away salary cap bother you? The total will be close to 15M difference? Think that might be helpful? But, as just stated above, our leadership has a long history of this and has made numerous poor financial decisions in a very short time. Again. 

But Im sure everything is fine......

[Mr. Scot]

8 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

Guys, I give up. I can't get through your narrative. I don't agree that Ron and Marty suck (even though I don't think everything they do is good), and I can't join your club without drinking that Kool-Aid. 

Good luck.

Whats their win loss record look like?

I'll give you a hint: It's below 500.

The biggest problems with the Butker mistake are 1) the guys who made it are still currently in charge and 2) it's far from the only mistake they've made.

Now, the notion that we can just sit back and say "oh well, too bad" and continue with the same people who've already screwed up multiple seasons and hope that somehow, someway they magically get better is kind of silly. That'd be like ignoring Taylor Heinicke's awful performance and just saying "nah, we're good at backup".

This is professional football, not youth league. Please who are bad at their jobs get fired, no matter how nice they are, and well they should be.

Why you want to argue so desperately to keep people who help us lose more than they help us win is inexplicable.

[Toomers]

8 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

Guys, I give up. I can't get through your narrative. I don't agree that Ron and Marty suck (even though I don't think everything they do is good), and I can't join your club without drinking that Kool-Aid. 

Good luck.

Ill help translate. 

  I tried to deflect around my cherrypicked data but you hit me over the head with so many facts I tapped out. 

[raleigh-panther]

On 1/21/2019 at 1:02 AM, PantherNation123 said:

"More so than anything else", it was just a "missed opportunity"

Yep if I hear that one more time, those two phrases I will thrown up

along with his penchant for repeating a phase as if to convince himself

quote,  I was really happy for the young man, I really am

 

[Khyber53]

9 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Whats their win loss record look like?

I'll give you a hint: It's below 500.

The biggest problems with the Butker mistake are 1) the guys who made it are still currently in charge and 2) it's far from the only mistake they've made.

Now, the notion that we can just sit back and say "oh well, too bad" and continue with the same people who've already screwed up one season and hope that somehow, someway they magically get better is kind of silly. That'd be like ignoring Taylor Heinicke's awful performance and just saying "nah, we're good at backup".

This is professional football, not youth league. Please who are bad at their jobs get fired, no matter how nice they are, and they should be.

Why you want to argue so desperately to keep people who help us lose more than they help us win is inexplicable.

Well, the ownership of the team is giving Rivera and Hurney another year at least, so that's said and done. We'll know at the end of next season whether it was the right decision or the wrong one.  How about a little wager then? If Rivera and Hurney turn out a season that sees RR with a contract extension and Hurney still as the GM, you spend the next season as a Bengals fan. And if they lose their jobs at the end of next season, I'll be a Bengals fan for the following year. 

Heck, I'm offering this wager to you without even knowing if Cam's shoulder will work next season or not. That, plus your vast and infallible football knowledge, should put you at a mighty advantage. What do you say?

Edit to add: BTW, you did see how bad they screwed up Heinicke's elbow, right? He looked great on that first series, then after the injury the Saints players kept targeting that arm again and again. I'm not sure I'd feel too good about slamming his performance that day. He was wearing our colors and trying to get a win for me, you and the rest of the Panthers fans.

 

[Mr. Scot]

7 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

Well, the ownership of the team is giving Rivera and Hurney another year at least, so that's said and done. We'll know at the end of next season whether it was the right decision or the wrong one.  How about a little wager then? If Rivera and Hurney turn out a season that sees RR with a contract extension and Hurney still as the GM, you spend the next season as a Bengals fan. And if they lose their jobs at the end of next season, I'll be a Bengals fan for the following year. 

Heck, I'm offering this wager to you without even knowing if Cam's shoulder will work next season or not. That, plus your vast and infallible football knowledge, should put you at a mighty advantage. What do you say?

Rivera and Hurney already turned in a lousy season and kept their jobs. Who's to say but even if they 0-16 this year, Tepper might not keep them?

Again, you're off base. I absolutely hope for a better year this year. I just don't believe there will be one because we've kept people who are not good at their jobs in charge.

You've spoken a lot about how we should just let go of the things that are in the past. Do you want to apply that philosophy to free agents? Shall we hold on to guys like Devin Funchess who have underperformed just because it was all in the past?

Rafiki may have made a good jungle philosopher, but he'd make a lousy football coach.

[Khyber53]

6 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Rivera and Hurney already turned in a lousy season and kept their jobs. Who's to say but even if they 0-16 this year, Tepper might not keep them?

Again, you're off base. I absolutely hope for a better year this year. I just don't believe there will be one because we've kept people who are not good at their jobs in charge.

You've spoken a lot about how we should just let go of the things that are in the past. Do you want to apply that philosophy to free agents? Shall we hold on to guys like Devin Funchess who have underperformed just because it was all in the past?

Rafiki may have made a good jungle philosopher, but he'd make a lousy football coach.

My contention is that we can't cut everyone. It is also that we have to take a discerning eye to what we saw this past season as there were a lot of factors that went into that 7-9 season: Cam's shoulder recovery and later injury; Greg Olsen's injured foot being injured and then reinjured again during the season; having two past DCs poached to HC jobs elsewhere and having the Peter Principle played out in front of us as we promoted Washington beyond his ability to perform; underperformance by some FA pick ups; complete decimation of our offensive line before the close of Week 2 (not to mention still suffering from the horrible Matt Kalil contract Gettleman worked up); a shake up and change of ownership (which does have repercussions even if everyone is in favor of it); and probably a host of things we don't know about because neither you nor I are in that locker room or sitting in the coaching meetings.

I posted earlier why I thought some of those questionable guys might catch a break, but I also cautioned that I wouldn't put my life on the line for any of their jobs. I think there were happenstances last season that were outside of anyone's control that impacted on this season. I think Rivera's approach kept things from getting even worse than it could have... that losing streak could have easily started earlier in the season. And we've both seen head coaches and teams completely melt down in those situations. Somehow, the players and coaching staff stuck together and didn't throw each other under the bus. 

But hey, you don't like the guy. That's your right. I like the guy. That's mine. You think he'll make even more mistakes and wreck next season. I think he'll get it back under control and contend again next season. We'll just have to tune in and see what happens.

[Mr. Scot]

11 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

My contention is that we can't cut everyone. It is also that we have to take a discerning eye to what we saw this past season as there were a lot of factors that went into that 7-9 season: Cam's shoulder recovery and later injury; Greg Olsen's injured foot being injured and then reinjured again during the season; having two past DCs poached to HC jobs elsewhere and having the Peter Principle played out in front of us as we promoted Washington beyond his ability to perform; underperformance by some FA pick ups; complete decimation of our offensive line before the close of Week 2 (not to mention still suffering from the horrible Matt Kalil contract Gettleman worked up); a shake up and change of ownership (which does have repercussions even if everyone is in favor of it); and probably a host of things we don't know about because neither you nor I are in that locker room or sitting in the coaching meetings.

I posted earlier why I thought some of those questionable guys might catch a break, but I also cautioned that I wouldn't put my life on the line for any of their jobs. I think there were happenstances last season that were outside of anyone's control that impacted on this season. I think Rivera's approach kept things from getting even worse than it could have... that losing streak could have easily started earlier in the season. And we've both seen head coaches and teams completely melt down in those situations. Somehow, the players and coaching staff stuck together and didn't throw each other under the bus. 

But hey, you don't like the guy. That's your right. I like the guy. That's mine. You think he'll make even more mistakes and wreck next season. I think he'll get it back under control and contend again next season. We'll just have to tune in and see what happens.

Our current head coach and GM are examples of the Peter Principle.  Hurney especially, though he could more rightly be called an example of the Richardson Principle, i.e. when you promote people because they're loyal instead of because they're competent, you get lousy results.

But again, you're arguing against something that nobody is saying. Nobody wants everybody cut. In fact everybody wants the kind of discernment that you're talking about when it comes to building the roster.

The problem with that is that the people we currently have in charge of building the roster don't have that kind of discernment. That's why they make lousy decisions like the one to keep Gano over Butker or the one to let go of CJ Anderson for no good reason.

And again, the problem isn't just Rivera. It's the combination of Rivera and Hurney. The combination of Rivera and Gettleman actually worked. Rivera / Hurney? Not so much.

You can try to be optimistic as much as you want, but as long as we've got people who are lousy at roster building in charge of building the roster, I'm gonna be skeptical.

[Cpt slay a ho]

34 minutes ago, Toomers said:

It’s been clearly explained many times over. If he’s been so good, why are his career numbers so below average? One good season where he didn’t make a 50 yarder? He’s been making too much for a long time. 

  At what point does throwing away salary cap bother you? The total will be close to 15M difference? Think that might be helpful? But, as just stated above, our leadership has a long history of this and has made numerous poor financial decisions in a very short time. Again. 

But Im sure everything is fine......

This situation is nitpicking and penny pinching, the margin of error   Is slim to none if we’re griping about the gano/butker situation. It’s been stated already that given the new kick rules that gano was also a big factor in kickoffs. Gano performance has not been the best lately, but I still can’t get why there’s a problem with the fo going with a proven vet kicker coming back from injury over an unproven 7th rounder. I think some of you are getting tunnel vision and not realizing how rare, very rare it is for a 7th rounder to make the roster let alone take someone’s starting spot. Also think some of you are being very lazy and just blaming hurney for every thing, coaching staff plays a big role into this as well, but this “mistake” isn’t anything to raise hell about, nothing more than nitpicking 

[Toomers]

1 minute ago, Cpt slay a ho said:

This situation is nitpicking and penny pinching, the margin of error   Is slim to none if we’re griping about the gano/butker situation. It’s been stated already that given the new kick rules that gano was also a big factor in kickoffs. Gano performance has not been the best lately, but I still can’t get why there’s a problem with the fo going with a proven vet kicker coming back from injury over an unproven 7th rounder. I think some of you are getting tunnel vision and not realizing how rare, very rare it is for a 7th rounder to make the roster let alone take someone’s starting spot. Also think some of you are being very lazy and just blaming hurney for every thing, coaching staff plays a big role into this as well, but this “mistake” isn’t anything to raise hell about, nothing more than nitpicking 

15M is nitpicking? At what cost do we actually start worrying? All for an extra couple touchbacks a season? 

  I’ll choose evidence of continued incompetence. Same as 1.0

[Cpt slay a ho]

Blind hate, or despising someone isn’t healthy. Give hurney enough rope and let him hang himself,if he hasn’t  truly learn anything. Thinking hurney 2017 is the same as Hurney 2011 is a logic fallacy some of you need to take a min a ponder over. With that logic guys like belechick(misspelling), Jared goff, Ted Ginn would never get a second chance because it would be believed that they haven’t evolved or changed, just a illogical viewpoint