Veterans beware

[stbugs]

4 hours ago, MadHatter said:

Completely incorrect.  If we pay him he counts 19m towards the 2020 cap.  If we cut him he counts 17m towards the 2020 cap.

Lol. Are you really going to double down on your post? Do you realize that cap space rolls over and cap hits are pushed out? There is also a year called 2021. It’s a year that happens after 2020. In fact it happens right after.

In the case where you suggest we keep him, he counts $11M in 2021 even if he doesn’t play. If we cut him this year he has no cap hit in 2021.

Again, since you think you’re correct and you like to call people idiots when you are wrong, if we keep Short this year we lose an extra $13M in cap space over this year and next. We have to pay him an extra salary. Stop trying to act like you are correct when you aren’t. If you’d honestly like to understand, google Kawann Short contract and look at his contract.

One last time, you never reduce dead cap, ever. It’s already been paid out so keeping someone another year only adds to their overall cap hit and only spreads dead cap another year (or two with post June 1st cuts). 

[stbugs]

4 hours ago, 45catfan said:

Some folks want an all-out rebuild which means, no veterans (aside from cheap scrubs to fill out the roster) and either cut or trade what decently talented vets we have left.  I even remember some crazy notion months about blowing the whole thing up and trading CMC before he got extended.

The idea of competing while rebuilding is 100% incompatible to some folks.  It's either you compete and not rebuild or rebuild and not compete.   The Panthers front office thinks both can occur simultaneously.  I guess we will see.

Not really true. Only vets that fit a 5 year plan. Short doesn’t and almost everyone who wants him this year wants to cut him the next. What’s the point? Has he mentored Vernon Butler well enough that Derrick Brown actually needs him to be a stud? I wanted CMC to sign because he and Moore (never mentioned) are weapons that our future franchise QB will need. I wanted the comp picks we wasted to fill in OL. Wouldn’t an extra 3rd, 4th and two 6ths be nice to grab 4 more OL or trade up for 1 or 2 solid interior OL prospects? Wouldn’t the $26.5M in 2020 and 2021 cap space rolled over be nice to have in 2022/2023 when we are owning our division with Lawrence/Fields/Lance and Brady and Brees are gone and Ryan is almost 40/Julio is 33/34? Throw in an extra $63M from Teddy and $20M from Robby and instead of these bridge guys while we aren’t in the playoffs we can add someone on the level of Khalil Mack/Aaron Donald. I hope I’m wrong, but with all the comp picks were were entitled to this year and the top of the 2021 QB class, I think we are absolutely wrong trying to compete in 2020 and it could really cost us over the next 5-10 years.

[kungfoodude]

1 hour ago, stbugs said:

Not really true. Only vets that fit a 5 year plan. Short doesn’t and almost everyone who wants him this year wants to cut him the next. What’s the point? Has he mentored Vernon Butler well enough that Derrick Brown actually needs him to be a stud? I wanted CMC to sign because he and Moore (never mentioned) are weapons that our future franchise QB will need. I wanted the comp picks we wasted to fill in OL. Wouldn’t an extra 3rd, 4th and two 6ths be nice to grab 4 more OL or trade up for 1 or 2 solid interior OL prospects? Wouldn’t the $26.5M in 2020 and 2021 cap space rolled over be nice to have in 2022/2023 when we are owning our division with Lawrence/Fields/Lance and Brady and Brees are gone and Ryan is almost 40/Julio is 33/34? Throw in an extra $63M from Teddy and $20M from Robby and instead of these bridge guys while we aren’t in the playoffs we can add someone on the level of Khalil Mack/Aaron Donald. I hope I’m wrong, but with all the comp picks were were entitled to this year and the top of the 2021 QB class, I think we are absolutely wrong trying to compete in 2020 and it could really cost us over the next 5-10 years.

I mean.....if we are really trying to compete in 2020.....woof. I suppose we will have to see what the next coaching staff has to offer, in that case.

[jfra78]

9 hours ago, Khyber53 said:

We do need Short, but it has been years since we've seen KK in a dominant, or even disruptive role on defense. Since the big contract and sending Star into the Great White North, KK has underperformed. Last year was an injury season for him, but do you think he'd have been putting forth much effort in those late season games had he remained healthy.

We do need Short, it's just we haven't gotten what we need from him for the past few years. He'll be playing for his next contract this time around, so maybe the motivation will be there.

Short had a really good year after signing his extension.  The next year was on a badly coached defense lead by Eric Washington, nobody looked good that year.  The following year he was hurt.  People believing that he could return to form this year, especially playing next to Brown, aren't crazy for thinking so.

[MadHatter]

21 hours ago, stbugs said:

Lol. Are you really going to double down on your post? Do you realize that cap space rolls over and cap hits are pushed out? There is also a year called 2021. It’s a year that happens after 2020. In fact it happens right after.

In the case where you suggest we keep him, he counts $11M in 2021 even if he doesn’t play. If we cut him this year he has no cap hit in 2021.

Again, since you think you’re correct and you like to call people idiots when you are wrong, if we keep Short this year we lose an extra $13M in cap space over this year and next. We have to pay him an extra salary. Stop trying to act like you are correct when you aren’t. If you’d honestly like to understand, google Kawann Short contract and look at his contract.

One last time, you never reduce dead cap, ever. It’s already been paid out so keeping someone another year only adds to their overall cap hit and only spreads dead cap another year (or two with post June 1st cuts). 

I see what you are saying..I was only referring to 2020.  Yet, with our current DT situation, I still think only an idiot would cut him this year.

[kungfoodude]

57 minutes ago, MadHatter said:

I see what you are saying..I was only referring to 2020.  Yet, with our current DT situation, I still think only an idiot would cut him this year.

I don't known if anyone can say conclusively if it is dumb to cut him or dumb to keep him. It's pretty tough to really surmise what the exact plan is. Lots of mixed signals based on the offseason moves.

[MadHatter]

1 hour ago, kungfoodude said:

I don't known if anyone can say conclusively if it is dumb to cut him or dumb to keep him. It's pretty tough to really surmise what the exact plan is. Lots of mixed signals based on the offseason moves.

Outside KK, we have a rookie and a nobody.  I think we would have signed someone serviceable if we intended to cut KK.

[ncsfinest21]

Short not being there sent Luke into retirement. He was big in allowing Luke to find gaps to get to RBs

[stbugs]

1 hour ago, kungfoodude said:

I don't known if anyone can say conclusively if it is dumb to cut him or dumb to keep him. It's pretty tough to really surmise what the exact plan is. Lots of mixed signals based on the offseason moves.

Exactly. We moved on from Cam, Greg, Bradberry, etc. We trade Turner, not for picks but for a 1 year $13M LT in Okung. Do we want to see if Little can do it or have we given up on him already? We would get a 3rd for Bradberry like Norwell and Norman, but then we toss that away for Teddy. Short is absolutely 100% not in the 5 year plan, just like Olsen and Cam, obviously. People in here will say we need to keep Short as a vet leader? I haven’t ever heard a single word about his leadership. We sure didn’t see it in Butler’s development. Short is somehow a better leader than Olsen?

We aren’t in full rebuild as we’ve tossed away some good comp picks and we have already thrown a lot more FA dollars than most thought we would or should. We say Teddy’s a bridge QB but why would you want to risk not getting one of the stud QBs this draft?

I’m not really sure what to expect but I’m worried we’ll stay in a mediocre area and keep trying to solve the next Cam issue for a while when we seemed to have been in perfect shape. Oh well, here’s to hoping it works out because more of the last two years will suck.

[kungfoodude]

56 minutes ago, MadHatter said:

Outside KK, we have a rookie and a nobody.  I think we would have signed someone serviceable if we intended to cut KK.

You'd also think we'd have some real depth but that didn't happen.

[panthers55]

On 5/24/2020 at 12:08 PM, stbugs said:

See my post. It’s not just the cash savings. You are ignoring the ability to rollover the $13M you save this year from new salary. Since we are rebuilding, I’d rather have that $13M in 2021 to pay Moton or Moore or save for 2022/2023 when a Matthieu or Clark etc. could help when we are ready to make a run. 

And you are ignoring the cost of replacing him with a veteran of his calibier.  Second you are assuming it will be a post June 1 cut as well which wasn't in play necessarily in the 2 million savings discussion that occured prior to June 1st. Third we already have the highest dead cap space of any team and this just adds more. Next year we have the cap space to do anything we want and if we cut him then it won't be on top of Aton of other dead cap space already like this year. But I won't go back and forth knowing you have an irrational dislike for Short making any debate pointless. 

I think he will bounce back with a better cast and scheme 

[stbugs]

1 hour ago, panthers55 said:

And you are ignoring the cost of replacing him with a veteran of his calibier.  Second you are assuming it will be a post June 1 cut as well which wasn't in play necessarily in the 2 million savings discussion that occured prior to June 1st. Third we already have the highest dead cap space of any team and this just adds more. Next year we have the cap space to do anything we want and if we cut him then it won't be on top of Aton of other dead cap space already like this year. But I won't go back and forth knowing you have an irrational dislike for Short making any debate pointless. 

I think he will bounce back with a better cast and scheme 

We don’t need a $13M DT. We aren’t making the playoffs this year and we aren’t keeping him in 2021. It’s a waste.

Also, for the bolded, I don’t know how I can explain it more. Short has $17M in dead cap right now. It’s not going down. It’s not going away. If he plays with us this year, $6M of his $19M 2020 cap hit is dead cap and then $11M in dead cap happens in 2021.

If you are worried about dead cap then you should be worried that if we keep Short this year we will spend $30M in cap space on him in 2020 and 2021. You just said that we have more room next year to cut Short and not worry about dead cap. It doesn’t work that way. You’d be spending another $13M in space to save nothing.

You can call the discussion pointless and act like I hate Short, but you’re incorrect about dead cap and cap space. Cap space rolls over and dead cap doesn’t magically “happen” but cutting someone. It’s already there. We don’t create more, it happens the day the bonuses are given out. Also using up cap space in 2020 to save space in 2021 is also meaningless since cap space rolls over. I feel like I’m speaking German in here because the same fallacies on how dead cap and cap space in general works.

[stbugs]

2 hours ago, kungfoodude said:

You'd also think we'd have some real depth but that didn't happen.

You can’t have a deep team after one draft based on the huge amount of losses we had. We lost Bradberry, Cam, Luke, McCoy, Butler, Van Roten, Addison, Cockrell, Reid, Love, Turner, Olsen, Poe and probably more that I forgot. You can’t fix that in one offseason and we already had depth issues. I hate to beat a dead horse, but that’s why I was so excited about getting a haul in comp picks. We knew how many players we were losing so having a lot of picks would be great. Especially after seeing this draft, I’d love to have had 11 picks next year.

[jfra78]

21 minutes ago, stbugs said:

We don’t need a $13M DT. We aren’t making the playoffs this year and we aren’t keeping him in 2021. It’s a waste.

Also, for the bolded, I don’t know how I can explain it more. Short has $17M in dead cap right now. It’s not going down. It’s not going away. If he plays with us this year, $6M of his $19M 2020 cap hit is dead cap and then $11M in dead cap happens in 2021.

If you are worried about dead cap then you should be worried that if we keep Short this year we will spend $30M in cap space on him in 2020 and 2021. You just said that we have more room next year to cut Short and not worry about dead cap. It doesn’t work that way. You’d be spending another $13M in space to save nothing.

You can call the discussion pointless and act like I hate Short, but you’re incorrect about dead cap and cap space. Cap space rolls over and dead cap doesn’t magically “happen” but cutting someone. It’s already there. We don’t create more, it happens the day the bonuses are given out. Also using up cap space in 2020 to save space in 2021 is also meaningless since cap space rolls over. I feel like I’m speaking German in here because the same fallacies on how dead cap and cap space in general works.

Its not dead cap if he is playing on the team. The 6 million is his bonus prorated over the course of the deal.  Every year he plays of his contract, more of his bonus gets paid and then is not dead cap

2020	31	$12,500,000	$6,339,000	$1,000,000	$500,000		$0		$19,464,000	9.3%		$17,356,000	$2,108,000
2021	32	$12,500,000	$6,339,000	$1,500,000	$500,000		$0		$20,839,000	9.7%		$11,017,000	$9,822,000
2022	33	$0	$2,339,000	$0	$0		$0		$4,678,000	2.1%		$4,678,000	$0
2023	34	$0	$2,339,000	$0	$0		$0		$0	0.0%		$2,339,000	($2,339,000)