Comparing Current Roster Against 2003

[jfra78]

16 minutes ago, CRA said:

2003 would beat the 2015 (17-1) squad in a head to head like that too.   But the 2015 team had the higher ceiling. 

I think 2003 had a more talented team from top to bottom, but 2015 would win head to head.  Cam had that it factor, only thing that could stop Cam that year was the refs.

[CRA]

Just now, jfra78 said:

I think 2003 had a more talented team from top to bottom, but 2015 would win head to head.  Cam had that it factor, only thing that could stop Cam that year was the refs.

yep, 2003 was the best roster we have ever put together IMO. 

2015 was the best team simply because the of the ceiling the superstars provided.    

It also highlights how QB impactful a stud QB is....Cam goes 17-1 in 2015.  A Kyle Allen type probably goes 5-11 with the same roster. 

[PNW_PantherMan]

24 minutes ago, CRA said:

2003 would beat the 2015 (17-1) squad in a head to head like that too.   But the 2015 team had the higher ceiling. 

Maybe on paper, but Michael Vick completely destroyed John Fox's defenses.  We could never deal with mobile QBs.  I have a hard time believing he could have slowed Cam down at all.

[CRA]

1 minute ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

Maybe on paper, but Michael Vick completely destroyed John Fox's defenses.  We could never deal with mobile QBs.  I have a hard time believing he could have slowed Cam down at all.

I got the 2015 > 2003 team. 

Vick was a different nightmare than Cam though.  Two totally different runners.  2003 John Fox would have had a pretty nasty front to rough Cam up with though.  They would have better odds of putting some pain on Cam. 

[PNW_PantherMan]

2 minutes ago, CRA said:

I got the 2015 > 2003 team. 

Vick was a different nightmare than Cam though.  Two totally different runners.  2003 John Fox would have had a pretty nasty front to rough Cam up with though.  They would have better odds of putting some pain on Cam. 

That's true, I just think historically we had a very difficult time stopping any kind of a running threat at QB.  I don't know if it was the scheme or the coaching or what, but we never seemed to be ready for that kind of thing.

Cam was/is more of a power runner, but he was still damn quick at his physical peak.  On 3rd and long, it felt like he could see an opening and shoot upfield for 10 yards in about a quarter of a second.

[CRA]

17 minutes ago, stbugs said:

Agree on the WRs. There’s nostalgia but talent wise 1-5, this could be a ridiculous WR crew if Darnold turns a corner. I mean last year’s top 3 had 3100 yards and the 2003 WRs had 2300 yards.

 

But then you could ask the question....of how much more production could those guys of had in 2003 if they played with present day rules. 

I mean Ricky Manning Jr was star on that 2003 team because you were still allowed to maul WRs.

[Navy_football]

I don't think it's even close. That 2003 team was STACKED! The only positions that were better from 2015 was TE and QB. I love Luke but Dan Morgan was a F'ing dawg tackling machine in the Middle. Witherspoon was an easy comp to Davis (once again I LOVE Thomas Davis). RBs, WRs, DL, OL, DBs, all considerably better in 2003. Heck we had the best place kicker in the history of the franchise on that team - even though he choked in the big game. Don't know if they'd beat them. Cam was playing that good, but you can't argue the talent on the rosters. 

[CRA]

I love me some Dan  Morgan.  Very underrated.

But Luke is on another level IMO. 

 

[PNW_PantherMan]

9 minutes ago, CRA said:

I love me some Dan  Morgan.  Very underrated.

But Luke is on another level IMO. 

 

Im convinced that Dan was a hall of fame linebacker if he could stay on the field.  Conversely, his entire play style was having no regard for his own health.

[CRA]

24 minutes ago, stbugs said:

Conjecture is conjecture. Would Samuel have been far and away faster than almost every defender?

You can’t take their best years and act like they all did that in 2003. In 2003, the WRs didn’t really have amazing seasons and Smith/Muhammad played well in the playoffs. Proehl averaged 22/23 yards per game. Samuel tripled his output. Moore and Smith had very similar seasons but Anderson and Samuel had 900 more yards than Muhammad and Proehl.

Results wise it was even close.

2 QBs threw for 4000 yards in 2003.  Almost half the league had a QB that did it in 2020.   It's a passing league now.  You could to do things to WRs in 2003 that you can't do today. 

I'd call 89's collective 2003 an amazing year.   His 2003 postseason is one of the best all time by a WR.  Top 5.   It wasn't just playing well.   2003 was the birth of agent 89.  

[Zaximus]

That 2003 team had something you can't coach and it was heart.  So many come backs from week 1 onward.

I think 2015 was better just because Cam was just unstoppable with a pretty bad supporting cast.   That was one of the best QB years ever and people seem to forget.  

[Seltzer]

9 minutes ago, CRA said:

2 QBs threw for 4000 yards in 2003.  Almost half the league had a QB that did it in 2020.   It's a passing league now.  You could to do things to WRs in 2003 that you can't do today. 

I'd call 89's collective 2003 an amazing year.   His 2003 postseason is one of the best all time by a WR.  Top 5.   It wasn't just playing well.   2003 was the birth of agent 89.  

Smitty in the 2003 playoffs was magical (in fairness 2005 was probably even better).  But that was definitely when he became a superstar and in the discussion as one of the best WR's in the league.

The national media that year didn't fully realize just how good Smitty was until the playoffs b/c we entered the year so far under the radar

It will be hard for another receiver in Carolina to top the double-overtime 69 yard house call in St. Louis given everything that was riding on that play.  The Panthers defense was gassed, and would have probably lost had Smitty not at least converted that 3rd down into a fresh set of downs.  

[Seltzer]

55 minutes ago, CRA said:

But then you could ask the question....of how much more production could those guys of had in 2003 if they played with present day rules. 

I mean Ricky Manning Jr was star on that 2003 team because you were still allowed to maul WRs.

It gets lost in the postseason that Smitty had (and the fact that Ricky Manning wasn't able to keep up that level of play beyond the 2003 postseason), but we don't make the Super Bowl without Manning, Jr.

He made one of the best one-handed interceptions I've seen to this day snatching the ball away from Torry Holt when the Rams were in the edge of field goal range in OT against the Rams.

He followed that up with a 3 INT game in the NFC Championship game against the Eagles where he absolutely brutalized the Eagles finesse receivers.

His style wouldn't cut it today, but Manning's level of CB play in the 2003 playoffs was as good and perhaps better than any other corner in Panthers history over a short span.  The only other CB that comes close to dominating the game over a 3 game stretch was Josh Norman in 2015 where he single-handedly won the Jacksonville and 1st Saints game during the first 3 weeks of the 2015 season.

[CRA]

4 minutes ago, Seltzer said:

It gets lost in the postseason that Smitty had (and the fact that Ricky Manning wasn't able to keep up that level of play beyond the 2003 postseason), but we don't make the Super Bowl without Manning, Jr.

He made one of the best one-handed interceptions I've seen to this day snatching the ball away from Torry Holt when the Rams were in the edge of field goal range in OT against the Rams.

He followed that up with a 3 INT game in the NFC Championship game against the Eagles where he absolutely brutalized the Eagles finesse receivers.

His style wouldn't cut it today, but Manning's level of CB play in the 2003 playoffs was as good and perhaps better than any other corner in Panthers history over a short span.  The only other CB that comes close to dominating the game over a 3 game stretch was Josh Norman in 2015 where he single-handedly won the Jacksonville and 1st Saints game during the first 3 weeks of the 2015 season.

yep, Manning Jr also has a lot to do with my Horn hesitation going in.  Manning Jr only worked playing a certain way.  He couldn't adjust and find success playing different.