Just for the sake of discussion, is there a correlation between size and injury?

[rayzor]

i have been thinking about this and i'm sure most of you have been as well. we're concerned about Young's size and how likely it is for him to get injured by players twice his size.

i know it makes sense that it would be a major concern, but is that concern really warranted? Are smaller framed players, especially QBs, more prone to injury than larger ones?

Just like the issue of batted down passes, there are some players more prone to having them batted down, but it isn't because of their height. Could it be that the stats bear out that size isn't really a factor in frequency of injury for QBs? 

Thanks to @stan786 for finding this article on weight vs. injuries https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/weight-and-injuries

I'm going to let you all look at it and see what you think and also see if you can find anymore studies showing this.

again, it makes sense that it would be a concern, but is the concern warranted by any actual stats? or is it all, "he's so small and they're so big!!!"?

[ForJimmy]

For Young I think it is size combined with his playing style.  Running around extending plays is awesome, but it definitely leads to extra hits.  So it's the size plus the number of hits he takes.  You also don't want to take that part of his game away because that is where he excels.  If he was a pocket guy that got the ball out quickly and avoided hits, the size wouldn't be as much of a concern (like Drew Brees).  

[ladypanther]

Too many variables to be able to draw any conclusions from that article but it is a good question.  Would be nice to be able to focus in on QB's alone.

[stan786]

5 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

For Young I think it is size combined with his playing style.  Running around extending plays is awesome, but it definitely leads to extra hits.  So it's the size plus the number of hits he takes.  You also don't want to take that part of his game away because that is where he excels.  If he was a pocket guy that got the ball out quickly and avoided hits, the size wouldn't be as much of a concern (like Drew Brees).  

I feel like while yes him running can increase the number of hits taken, you cant remove the amount he's avoiding by moving from the equation. Even for running QBs the pocket is where the far majority of QB injuries occur, being able to navigate the pocket and avoid some of that mess also needs to be factored a bit.

I'd argue Brees and Young in pocket move very similarly watching them, while Bryce does end up extending stuff I havent seen on tape where it leads to a signficant increase in bigger hits or anything.

Though I will curb this with a point in your favor where Bryce's one shoulder injury came from trying to get the ball out falling into the sidelines, reminded me a little of Cam and that tackle against San Diego where he just fell out it at a weird angle.

Edited March 27, 2023 by stan786

[rightturn]

6 minutes ago, rayzor said:

i have been thinking about this and i'm sure most of you have been as well. we're concerned about Young's size and how likely it is for him to get injured by players twice his size.

i know it makes sense that it would be a major concern, but is that concern really warranted? Are smaller framed players, especially QBs, more prone to injury than larger ones?

Just like the issue of batted down passes, there are some players more prone to having them batted down, but it isn't because of their height. Could it be that the stats bear out that size isn't really a factor in frequency of injury for QBs? 

Thanks to @stan786 for finding this article on weight vs. injuries https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/weight-and-injuries

I'm going to let you all look at it and see what you think and also see if you can find anymore studies showing this.

again, it makes sense that it would be a concern, but is the concern warranted by any actual stats? or is it all, "he's so small and they're so big!!!"?

I think all one needs to know about size and the qb position is that young would literally be the smallest to play the position by a country mile and that’s telling.   So you are banging on young to be the anomaly of all anomalies.   That’s a huge gamble when jobs are on the line.   

[thefuzz]

You can say past isn't relevant to QB size because it all changed with Brees and Wilson....that could be true.

It's also could be true that typically smaller players can't hold up, nor can they typically make the throws needed to get to the next level at QB.

That said, there are very few starts in this league by guys 6' and under, compared to 6'3" and over.

[stan786]

I've been arguing this in this chat for a while so it'll come as no surprise here.

I'd love to see something other than people giving me a gut feel on where the magical number on the scale is that injuries happen less. Kyler isnt that much smaller than CJ but they use him as an example, Tua weighs more than CJ but they use him as an example.

There is plenty of QBs big and small that have been hurt at differing rates in the NFL. There have been small QBs that have played for 15+ years, there have been big QBs who've only made it like 6-7. There is so many factors in play when it comes to QB weight and there really isnt any data that correlates with skinner players being hurt at some insane rate.

I know it feels good to just logically think about it, but feels like there is a large portion of this board automatically downgrading a player based on something they feel should be true but hasnt played out that way.

 

[ForJimmy]

2 minutes ago, stan786 said:

I feel like while yes him running can increase the number of hits taken, you cant remove the amount he's avoiding by moving from the equation. Even for running QBs the pocket is where the far majority of QB injuries occur, being able to navigate the pocket and avoid some of that mess also needs to be factored a bit.

I'd argue Brees and Young in pocket move very similarly watching them, while Bryce does end up extending stuff I havent seen on tape where it leads to a signficant increase in bigger hits or anything.

Though I will curb this with a point in your favor where Bryce's one shoulder injury came from trying to get the ball out falling into the sidelines, reminded me a little of Cam and that tackle against San Diego where he just fell out it at a weird angle.

I will say this too.  He seems very good at taking hits as funny as that sounds.  I noticed he really kind of gives himself up and kind of absorbs the hit.  Those type of hits are usually pretty mild.  Someone on here compared it to drunk drivers rarely getting as injured because their bodies are relaxes the whole time.  I also think his size is going to limit some of our play calling, but if he excels at what he does I am not sure that matters as much.  

[rayzor]

2 minutes ago, rightturn said:

I think all one needs to know about size and the qb position is that young would literally be the smallest to play the position by a country mile and that’s telling.   So you are banging on young to be the anomaly of all anomalies.   That’s a huge gamble when jobs are on the line.   

but what about for other smaller QBs, because he might be the smallest, but he's not the only smaller QB to play. Were they more prone to injury than any other QBs? I mean is there enough evidence showing that we would be walking into a dangerous situation other than speculating because he is so small?

I'm not looking for "common sense" because common sense is often subjective, but i am looking for data to show this is something that we should really be concerned about.

I mean all we have right now is a lot of opinions stating that it's an issue because either it "makes sense" that it would be an issue or because we've never seen someone that small take on the role.

[stan786]

Just now, ForJimmy said:

I will say this too.  He seems very good at taking hits as funny as that sounds.  I noticed he really kind of gives himself up and kind of absorbs the hit.  Those type of hits are usually pretty mild.  Someone on here compared it to drunk drivers rarely getting as injured because their bodies are relaxes the whole time.  I also think his size is going to limit some of our play calling, but if he excels at what he does I am not sure that matters as much.  

I do think his size will limit some of our play calling as well and I can see that being an argument for sure. I also think that could explain why lighter QBs are getting hurt less, because maybe their coaches purposefully put them in harms way less.

[rayzor]

11 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

For Young I think it is size combined with his playing style.  Running around extending plays is awesome, but it definitely leads to extra hits.  So it's the size plus the number of hits he takes.  You also don't want to take that part of his game away because that is where he excels.  If he was a pocket guy that got the ball out quickly and avoided hits, the size wouldn't be as much of a concern (like Drew Brees).  

but will his elusiveness and spacial awareness keep him from taking more hits and will his flexibility allow him to cut down on the force of blows? 

i think if he was more of a pocket QB that he would be more prone to taking big hits. Scrambling around the backfield usually makes a QB less likely to take a hit. I think Cam's worse injuries happened when he was in the pocket and wasn't on the move. 

[rayzor]

7 minutes ago, thefuzz said:

You can say past isn't relevant to QB size because it all changed with Brees and Wilson....that could be true.

It's also could be true that typically smaller players can't hold up, nor can they typically make the throws needed to get to the next level at QB.

That said, there are very few starts in this league by guys 6' and under, compared to 6'3" and over.

that one study that @stan786shared in the other thread that i posted in here showed that the larger the player was, the more prone to injury they were. of course i don't think this was talking about contact injuries specifically, just all injuries. But even if you were to isolate contact injuries, would size be a quantifiable factor?

[rightturn]

4 minutes ago, rayzor said:

but what about for other smaller QBs, because he might be the smallest, but he's not the only smaller QB to play. Were they more prone to injury than any other QBs? I mean is there enough evidence showing that we would be walking into a dangerous situation other than speculating because he is so small?

I'm not looking for "common sense" because common sense is often subjective, but i am looking for data to show this is something that we should really be concerned about.

I mean all we have right now is a lot of opinions stating that it's an issue because either it "makes sense" that it would be an issue or because we've never seen someone that small take on the role.

It's not common sense. It's literally a data point that he would be the smallest in modern history.   There are multiple layered reasons for this. 

[ForJimmy]

5 minutes ago, stan786 said:

I do think his size will limit some of our play calling as well and I can see that being an argument for sure. I also think that could explain why lighter QBs are getting hurt less, because maybe their coaches purposefully put them in harms way less.

Yeah and I am not sure you want him taking snaps from under center.  He never really did in college.  I mean his size will be outside the data range of successful QBs, so it's really hard to estimate what that looks like.  People keep bringing up Brees, but Bress has like 2 inches and 20ish pounds on Young.  Comparing Brees's size to Young is like comparing Mahomes's size to Brees.  It's still more significant than some people are thinking on here.