Panthers' Offense: Some Core Concerns Surfacing Early

[Bear Hands]

Took a minute to digest whatever we saw on offense yesterday (It didn't taste good and didn't digest well, a big ole' sh*t)

It's not any one player performance outweighing the others.  Not here to mindlessly bash Bryce. 

I will say, it is absolutely frustrating to see him out there like he's a 3rd-4th round pick thrown in too soon.  That's not entirely on him...maybe lining up behind a guard accidentally.  Jokes out of the way, what is clear as day after 2 weeks, WR regardless, QB play regardless, this is regarding how this entire offense's architecture looks.    

We have:

Frank Reich - SB winning OC, former QB, NFL lifer

Jim Caldwell - SB winning HC, SB winning position coach, NFL lifer

Thomas Brown - Former RB, SB winning AHC/position coach, Highly hyped McVay protege

James Campen - SB winning OL coach, one of the higher regarded in the league

and then Josh McCown, former QB, testing the coaching waters.

The #1 Overall draft pick in 2023

And We have:

We have 266 passing yards after 2 games.  

--

I think how upset people about our performance so far is totally valid.  The best teams have coaches who can best cater to the talent they have.  The reactiveness and craziness here is not all justified, but it's pretty obvious why it's happening and another salty Darrin Gant bashes the fanbase article lies ahead.

It is downright inexcusable that they cannot position the players we have to create substantial yardage, sustain drives and create points right now.  We have been stifled to the effect of the 2010 lame duck season.  You look around the league and there is simply no one as limited on offense as we are right now. Not one.  Even Josh Dobbs is moving AZ down the field.  

So, my general glance, not an in depth study:

The outside zone schemes of the Shanahan and McVay disciples had defensive responses in recent years, and the NFL is already in arguably phase 3 of the modern scheme wars--that we're apparently complacent being on the sidelines from, not participating in. There's been an ongoing chess match in this regard with many of the top teams and their schemes and we can't even get in the building to try to keep up with it.  

Modern spread, wide-zone, deception, misdirection -- is not in the building

Reich framed his approach as one learning from past mistakes, being collaborative, but this looks like what he's always brought.  What it looks like (so far) is a fixed system that he's used before.  There's just no creativity I'm seeing right now, no outside runs, bunch formations, no defensive stretching stuff that keeps them guessing, condensed sets.  If there is, it's in such minor doses, that it's irrelevant.  

So, you get this type of group together, the #1 overall draft pick who can do this stuff (and showed in college), I'm sorry but you 100%, HAVE to look more competent. 

There's no excuse for looking this bad on offense.  I can buy certain aspects, such as, Bryce adjusting, having nice moments here and there and the OL having some decent stretches for backup guards playing.  But this is putrid.

It is EARLY, but this is a huge early indictment on the coaching staff.  They need to make serious adjustments and an early come to jesus about what they've implemented IF this is what they intended to deploy.  Show us why people kept saying this was some rockstar group of cats we put together.  

It's going to be a tough go against a SEA defense that's finding their identity with some quality DBs.   

Looking forward to some of the deep divers to dig into what we're seeing because, it isn't pretty by any stretch of the imagination.  

 

Overall:

Hoping for some more enjoyable football ahead.  I will say, Evero has our defense looking absolutely awesome.  Evero vs. Waldren will be fun.  

Hope Shaq heals as well as possible.  No one on the Offensive staff or players seem like sh*theads, but it looks like sh*t that's for sure. Cheers.

[Panthering]

3 minutes ago, Bear Hands said:

The outside zone schemes of the Shanahan and McVay disciples had defensive responses in recent years, and the NFL is already in arguably phase 3 of the modern scheme wars--that we're apparently complacent being on the sidelines from, not participating in. There's been an ongoing chess match in this regard with many of the top teams and their schemes and we can't even get in the building to try to keep up with it.  

Modern spread, wide-zone, deception, misdirection -- is not in the building

 

Yeah this is my gripe as well. I understand other teams have better talent than us but it still looks like teams like the Rams, Dolphins, 49ers of the world are playing an entirely different sport PRE-SNAP. I am not even addressing what happens after the snap, which hasn't been good either. 

It's a tough pill for fans to swallow after Reich openly talked about how vanilla preseason is and how he specifically called it that way and said it was "good" that it was boring. To then trot out the exact same stuff is just brutal to watch unfold for a team that's so talent deficient on that side of the ball. 

They simply aren't helping themselves here, I would much rather see some creativity to open it up and take shots. They did this on one playcall that I liked, someone set a pick to release Mingo (I think) up the right sideline, he was open, then Bryce overthrew it. I can live with those plays! It really is a shame that Laviska is such a dud of a route runner that he can't even get on the field as a WR in the regular season. We need his speed out there desperately. 

 

[TheCasillas]

My read on it is that it's in the playbook, but we have just not opened it up that far. Much like McVay said with Goff when he took over Goff's second year...  the playbooks opens up once you get your feet beneath you. I would not be surprised if we are witnesses the exact same scenario... bc this is extremely common in the NFL (see below). 

Unless you are the 2022 Dolphins... they did everything in their playbook last year and led the league wtih pre-snap penalties bc they couldnt get their pre-snap motions right and the back half of the year teams had them figured out. However, this year they look very good in the 2nd year of that offense. 

 

“I can’t put a percentage on it (how much more),” McVay said. “I will just say it’s evolved a little bit. Going back to last year at this time, we were figuring out what we wanted and how we wanted to operate. We had to find out what personnel groupings were going to be our main ones. Now we have a little familiarity with our players. We have a better direction on how we want to operate.”

“I think it’s just about being a productive receiver. Doing the little things the right way, being a threat that can kind of really challenge people down the field, but also intermediate and underneath,” McVay said recently. “Like you’ve heard us say over and over, he’s not really limited in any way that we can utilize him. But, I think he does a really nice job of kind of fitting into that ‘X’ role in terms of what we’re looking for from that spot.”

Edited September 19, 2023 by TheCasillas

[TheCasillas]

related to my post above is a perfect example of going to advanced with your offense right out of the gate:
 

Edited September 19, 2023 by TheCasillas

[LinvilleGorge]

This is either not the case or we've been fed a line of horseshit this off-season and preseason about how Bryce has been taking over offensive meetings, breaking down the protection schemed for the team on the whiteboard, etc.

I'm tired of hearing about this stuff. I want to SEE it.

[Bear Hands]

@TheCasillas Thanks for the context.  Will no doubt give it some time. 

I'd like to think we can still identify the scheme being applied aside from the extent of what is being implemented within the one we have.  Given what we're seeing, I'm unsure if the playbook at full deployment will be a wide-zone influenced, diversified spread look.  It seems more like his previous offense with some modern wrinkles.   But even Reich at his best, there's less sails and mesh right now (maybe what we're easing in) 

You mentioned you're buzzing out of town but def look forward to your next all-22 look. 

 

[TheCasillas]

7 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

This is either not the case or we've been fed a line of horseshit this off-season and preseason about how Bryce has been taking over offensive meetings, breaking down the protection schemed for the team on the whiteboard, etc.

I'm tired of hearing about this stuff. I want to SEE it.

lol... why the fug would they make that poo up? How do you even organize that?! Do you privately sit down with each player and the PR team gives them a script? 

Edited September 19, 2023 by TheCasillas

[TheCasillas]

1 minute ago, Bear Hands said:

@TheCasillas Thanks for the context.  Will no doubt give it some time. 

I'd like to think we can still identify the scheme being applied aside from the extent of what is being implemented within the one we have.  Given what we're seeing, I'm unsure if the playbook at full deployment will be a wide-zone influenced, diversified spread look.  It seems more like his previous offense with some modern wrinkles.   But even Reich at his best, there's less sails and mesh right now (maybe what we're easing in) 

You mentioned you're buzzing out of town but def look forward to your next all-22 look. 

 

i definitely havent seen the Reich playbook that was shared here on the huddle in the offseason. I can't recall which poster it was but they share a git with the full breakdown of Reich's playbook and it was 50+ pages long. I have only seen about 30% of what that doc had in it. So I am not sure if this is due to a slow progression or change of philosophy.

Speaking of philosophy... Reich's offense has always been about the run setting up the pass ... and with the current run game being sub par (personally i think this is due to oline, not the backs) ... I don't see a world this offense can succeed until we figure that part out.

[mrcompletely11]

Just now, TheCasillas said:

lol... why the fug would they make that poo up? How do you even organize that?! Do you privately sit down with each play and the PR team gives them a script? 

I mean you have to admit the pr blitz that happened after the draft and into training camp was a bit over the top about how quick bryce is at learning, how smart he is during live action etc.  So I guess we were expecting to come out guns ablazing.  Then Frank said preseason is vanilla but now the past 2 weeks happened and they look identical to the preseason and it honestly looks like they dont trust bryce. 

[LinvilleGorge]

3 minutes ago, TheCasillas said:

lol... why the fug would they make that poo up? How do you even organize that?! Do you privately sit down with each play and the PR team gives them a script? 

How can someone with such a thorough grasp of the offense be treated with such kid gloves by the play calling and look lost out there?

[mrcompletely11]

1 minute ago, TheCasillas said:

i definitely havent seen the Reich playbook that was shared here on the huddle in the offseason. I can't recall which poster it was but they share a git with the full breakdown of Reich's playbook and it was 50+ pages long. I have only seen about 30% of what that doc had in it. So I am not sure if this is due to a slow progression or change of philosophy.

Speaking of philosophy... Reich's offense has always been about the run setting up the pass ... and with the current run game being sub par (personally i think this is due to oline, not the backs) ... I don't see a world this offense can succeed until we figure that part out.

I thought we heard when he was hired that he relied a lot on the mesh concepts that set up the deep pass.  I havent seen any of that through 2 weeks.  Frankly I am not even sure what I am watching. 

[TheCasillas]

1 minute ago, mrcompletely11 said:

I mean you have to admit the pr blitz that happened after the draft and into training camp was a bit over the top about how quick bryce is at learning, how smart he is during live action etc.  So I guess we were expecting to come out guns ablazing.  Then Frank said preseason is vanilla but now the past 2 weeks happened and they look identical to the preseason and it honestly looks like they dont trust bryce. 

i havent seen the All-22 but I can say without having to see it that the issue is not that they dont trust Bryce... People were complaining on here and reddit that we werent running the ball enough... you'd think we would run the ball more if we didnt trust Bryce, right?

[SmokinwithWilly]

1 minute ago, LinvilleGorge said:

How can someone with such a thorough grasp of the offense be treated with such kid gloves by the play calling and look lost out there?

My guess. The coaching staff may have realized that they fugged up. 

[TheCasillas]

3 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

How can someone with such a thorough grasp of the offense be treated with such kid gloves by the play calling and look lost out there?

i can't respond to this without seeing the all-22.  "Lost" is very subjective and opinionated. We have no idea the call, the decision, what he saw or the pressure.  

Bryce changed about 8 plays at the line last night and 3 of them led to a gain or first down. So I strongly disagree with the kids gloves. In all honesty, the real question should be "are they putting too much on Bryce?"

Edited September 19, 2023 by TheCasillas