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Scheme issues continue

Mr. Scot

By Mr. Scot,
in Carolina Panthers

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Bear Hands Grand Master

Bear Hands

Posted
Posted
Just now, Mr. Scot said:

Let's just say I put a lot more stock in Young's ability to handle a power run scheme than I do our offensive lines ability to do zone blocking.

But hell, even if you stuck with what we have now, what prevents you from running someplace out of a "jumbo' package with an extra tackle or something like that?

If we've tried anything of that sort this season, I missed it.

Apparently they don't and just don't want to change what they've set up.    

  

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CRA Grand Master

CRA

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Posted
4 hours ago, Bear Hands said:

Reich also mentioned what they needed for Bryce offensively, being spread, so maybe they just don't feel comfortable running a power scheme with Bryce under center more of the time.  So it's not the line, they don't want it for Bryce.  Could be as simple as that.  They're keeping Bryce comfortable scheme wise and felt good ENOUGH with the uglies to run it.  And it's not working out.  They're committed to emulating the higher-powered offenses right now and not do what works with the personnel.       

I wouldn't say they are emulating high powered offenses. I mean, the route concepts and playcalls don't really show that.   

This is also Frank's 8th season being a playcaller....and he has netted only 2 1000 yard WRs to date in his career as a playcaller (and one of those barely got there)

I still think if John Fox was an offensive HC, his name would be Frank Reich.  Thielen obviously should get there and make Frank's 3rd.  Obviously, nothing high powered about any of that though. 

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CRA Grand Master

CRA

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

The front office built a very good offensive line last season. Those same personnel being used improperly is on the coaching staff.

This front office hired Frank Reich to coach their team.  The front office then drafted Bryce Young.  They moved in a new direction.  There is nothing about any they did that aligns with a road grading 3 yard and a cloud of dust offense.  Frank and Bryce were never going to be part of that type offense. 

In the ultimate mental gymnastics to defend Scott Fitterer, it's Frank's fault for not running Steve Wilks offense.   Well, Scott should of made sure Steve Wilks was hired then.  

this all goes back to this past offseason when I explained to you why they needed to fire trash Scott Fitterer.  You need the GM and HC on the same page, same timetable, etc. Clearly, these two aren't on the same page.  Talent never matched what the O was going to be. Which was discussed very often this offseason.  From the OL, to the RBs to the WRs.   This was not the talent needed given what we would be.   And you can probably add the QB into that too.  It's not a Frank Reich QB.  It's all a predictable bad marriage. 

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Bear Hands Grand Master

Bear Hands

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35 minutes ago, CRA said:

I wouldn't say they are emulating high powered offenses. I mean, the route concepts and playcalls don't really show that.   

This is also Frank's 8th season being a playcaller....and he has netted only 2 1000 yard WRs to date in his career as a playcaller (and one of those barely got there)

I still think if John Fox was an offensive HC, his name would be Frank Reich.  Thielen obviously should get there and make Frank's 3rd.  Obviously, nothing high powered about any of that though. 

Oh they aren't-- I think Tepper wants to, and it's why they brought in a guy like Thomas Brown.  But Frank's offense is not really blendable with the McVay/Shanahan stuff.  That's kind of the problem for me. 

It's a clash of philosophies and they don't have anyone, really anyone at all that can stretch the field vertically while the horizontal stretching is rendered useless without the presnap motions and misdirects.  

Mishmash disaster.  

And what I think gets lost is that Frank verbalizes they want to do all this stuff, but in reality, his own architecture doesn't allow for it to happen.  He's inside zone, triangle, trap, mesh all day.  And he's living a contradiction as a coach right now and knows it.  He's trapped because the roster also doesn't allow for it to happen.  

And meanwhile, we have a QB who should ideally fit in the modern spread/stretch zone.  Annnnd Meanwhile, the fans are looking at last year thinking "Why can't we just do that!" 

It's a mess of wants, needs, all of the above.

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CRA Grand Master

CRA

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1 hour ago, Bear Hands said:

Oh they aren't-- I think Tepper wants to, and it's why they brought in a guy like Thomas Brown.  But Frank's offense is not really blendable with the McVay/Shanahan stuff.  That's kind of the problem for me. 

It's a clash of philosophies and they don't have anyone, really anyone at all that can stretch the field vertically while the horizontal stretching is rendered useless without the presnap motions and misdirects.  

Mishmash disaster.  

everything about this team feels like forced marriages.  Nothing jives.   That was my problem coming into this season.  

They opted to hire Frank Reich.   Then they opted to draft a QB that wasn't what a very particular HC largely was open about wanting historically.  The Frank path didn't fit what we had been building on the OL.  The GMs FA adds were red flagish given what the likely assumption of what we would be trying to be on O were. Then you hire some young offensive mind in Thomas and have Frank tie his hands/limit him.  Then you throw dinosaur Jim Caldwell on top of it all. 

Felt like Tepper just went out and bought a bunch of random coaches and smashed them all together.   No evidence there is a real vision being worked on here.   Nothing looks to be synced up.  And Fitt doesn't seem at all on the right page given what the HC and QB were going to be.   If we were going to play gun all day.....we needed a different backfield, we need quick speed at WR.  Ball was going to need to come out quick. D was going to be clamped down and coming hard at Bryce from the jump.   

We are playing small ball without small ball skill talent.  And it's going exactly how it was discussed it would before the season kicked off.  That's not Hubbard/Sanders.  That's not Theilen, TMJ, Chark or even a raw rookie Mingo (because his routes are trash this young)

this season has gone exactly how I feared.  Only much worse.  I was too optimistic. 

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Bear Hands Grand Master

Bear Hands

Posted
Posted
Just now, CRA said:

everything about this team feels like forced marriages.  Nothing jives.   That was my problem coming into this season.  

They opted to hire Frank Reich.   Then they opted to draft a QB that wasn't what a very particular HC largely was open wanting historically.  The Frank path didn't fit what we had been building on the OL.  The GMs FA adds were red flagish given what the likely assumption of what we would be trying to be on O were. Then you hire some young offensive mind in Thomas and have Frank tie his hands/limit him.  Then you throw dinosaur Jim Caldwell on top of it all. 

Felt like Tepper just went out and bought a bunch of random coaches and smashed them all together.   No evidence there is a real vision be worked on here.   Nothing looks to be synced up.  And Fitt doesn't seem at all on the right page given what the HC and QB were going to be.   If we were going to play gun all day.....we needed a different backfield, we need quick speed at WR.  Ball was going to need to come out quick. D was going to be clamped down and coming hard at Bryce from the jump.   

We are playing small ball without small ball skill talent.  And it's going exactly how it was discussed it would before the season kicked off.  That's not Hubbard/Sanders.  That's not Theilen, TMJ, Chark or even a raw rookie Mingo (because his routes are trash this young)

100000%

It really seems like the Teppers hired a guy that doesn't do what they want.  They hired a pizza chef to make sushi. 

But because they don't have the football background to know what that meant, they hired based off platitudes, resume, and visionary pitches. 

From everything I hear Tepper blabber about, he clearly wanted a modern spread, outside-zone in the spirit of a Shanahan/McVay-tree system.  He wanted his team to be in the influencer offensive crowd, creating/leading the trends.  He said as much a few times.

Yet, they get a more inside-zone, bland old school WCO-influenced guy, who loves tall QBs, and tell him to just gather all the coaches he can find with their checkbook.  Frank makes zero sense here at this time.  

If they had someone here in a executive capacity that knew what to listen for during the interview process, it should have been super clear pre-hire who/what they needed.  Heck, the list of candidates interviewed would have probably been a bit different as well.  

And once hired, Frank established the intent and vision in Jan/Feb.  There should have been an abundance of planning between him and Scott about the guys needed and what to target through FA and the draft.   So even if we wanted to scrape by with Frank, the planning was god awful.  Didn't try to target a Mims, Downs, Dell, Reed, Wilson, Achane, Palmer, Douglas, Spears, Tucker...no speed at WR, no pass-catching RBs.  Honestly, a waste of pick 39 and a waste of 2 more in a stupid trade up to 80.    

  

 

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toldozer Grand Master

toldozer

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Posted
On 11/20/2023 at 9:09 AM, Mr. Scot said:

Still no changes...

Changing who calls the plays doesn't matter if your scheme is still a mismatch.

We're continuing to try and run a West Coast Offense with personnel who just don't hit a WCO scheme.

It makes no sense at all.

What kind of system do you think Bryce and this cast of characters would be any better in

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