A Case For Being Optimistic.

[panthers55]

:|

If you still can't grasp that I am talking about filling holes and not the quality of players who left those holes, you should probably go take a nap or something.

And for the record, Witherspoon started 8 games in 2002 and was very good. Foster would have started every game for us if not for his injury.

Filling holes with anybody isn't the same as filling holes with guys who are as good or better than who they replaced. And if you can't see that why are you wasting everyone's time with all these longwinded grandiose posts?

And why are we talking 2002 and Witherspoon? And if you don't remember that williams took over in 2007 because his yards per carry were higher and Foster fumbled several times in critical situations, you should lay off the pot since it gives you memory loss and you seem already affected.

[SmootsDaddy89]

Filling holes with anybody isn't the same as filling holes with guys who are as good or better than who they replaced. And if you can't see that why are you wasting everyone's time with all these longwinded grandiose posts?

I agree with this. The problem is that you've elevated the old farts and role-players we let go of to such a high position that, in your mind, it's impossible for ANYONE to play as well as they did. And that's the fundamental difference between us. You think Na'il Diggs and Brad Hoover save babies from burning buildings in between stuffing running backs behind the line and flinging defensive tackles out of the stadium to clear a hole for Williams and Stewart. And I think they were average to above average, and very replaceable.

And why are we talking 2002 and Witherspoon? And if you don't remember that williams took over in 2007 because his yards per carry were higher and Foster fumbled several times in critical situations, you should lay off the pot since it gives you memory loss and you seem already affected.

Foster started every game and was given more carries in every game than Williams. Yes, it was clear Williams was the better back, but for whatever reason, Fox stuck with Foster for the entire season. If your old man brain chooses to remember differently, that is not my problem.

And I brought up Witherspoon because you seem to be of the opinion that we never get immediate impact players past the first round. How about Colbert's rookie season in 2004? Or we can talk about Mike Siedman getting several starts in 2003. Those are just off the top of my head.

[ncbobcat]

If our DT's sucked so bad last season, why is everyone so torn up about them leaving?

Becasue you could piecemeal a decent line with a combination of older and younger players instead of going with all unprovens.

[MadHatter]

Becasue you could piecemeal a decent line with a combination of older and younger players instead of going with all unprovens.

We will have to agree to disagree on the DLine.

[SmootsDaddy89]

Johnson is as close to a proven thing as you can get imo.

[panthers55]

I agree with this. The problem is that you've elevated the old farts and role-players we let go of to such a high position that, in your mind, it's impossible for ANYONE to play as well as they did. And that's the fundamental difference between us. You think Na'il Diggs and Brad Hoover save babies from burning buildings in between stuffing running backs behind the line and flinging defensive tackles out of the stadium to clear a hole for Williams and Stewart. And I think they were average to above average, and very replaceable.

It seems the only time you can find fault in my arguments is when you make things up and put words in my mouth. No one is saying they were were all that great. In fact I wasn't that upset by Diggs being released or Hoover for that matter. For me getting rid of guys like Brayton and Lewis will hurt us more than Diggs and Hoover because we don't have many quality replacements and particularly don't have much depth at this point. Our defensive line rotation was pretty good last year and will be worse this year. My point is that when you make too many cuts among your veteran leadership and count on 2 many guys to have to step up all at once, it a recipe for disaster.

Foster started every game and was given more carries in every game than Williams. Yes, it was clear Williams was the better back, but for whatever reason, Fox stuck with Foster for the entire season. If your old man brain chooses to remember differently, that is not my problem.

And I brought up Witherspoon because you seem to be of the opinion that we never get immediate impact players past the first round. How about Colbert's rookie season in 2004? Or we can talk about Mike Siedman getting several starts in 2003. Those are just off the top of my head

Getting more carries doesn't translate to being better or contributing more. And you seem to be the ones with memory problems not me. At least I have an excuse in any case.

So you are saying that in 7 years under Fox we have found less than 6 players who have come in and started as a rookie with at least 3 of them doing pretty good. And somehow that gives you optimism that with only 5 draft picks we are going to find several starters or contributers on this team right away. And that this should give us cause for optimism. Especially bringing up how great Seidman was and the fact that Colbert was a one hit wonder. And all of this optimism also assumes that everyone of the starters stays healthy and we don't have to go far down the depth chart despite the fact that we have historically have had more than our fair share of injuries like last year for example.

Speaking of inuries we are also assuming that Davis, Louis and Irvin will all stay healthy even though it very common for setbacks and guys with knee injuries to need 2 years for a full recovery. What if Leonard blows out his knee or Davis is slow to recover? With many starter holes and even less depth we better hope we stay healthy or there will be open tryouts at BOA for positions on the team.

Optimism?????? How about delusions of granduer.

[CatMan72]

I think you will get your wish at DE. I fully expect us to sign a Brayton type player sometime during FA. Heck,it might even be Brayton. He is still available.

I don't think we bring in another vet DT. We have Leonard and Tyler that performed well before being injured and for which we traded draft picks. Irvin has the skills to be that pressure guy up the middle. Hayden is a waste of air. Given that Johnson slides inside...as could Brayton (if we re-sign him), I think DT is set. We will prob take one somewhere later in the draft if they are bpa.

I think it's too early to say what Irvin can and can't do. Leonard is promising, the jury is still out on Tyler. We signed Ed Johnson so that may be all the vet DT help we're going to get... he played well a few years back in Indy, but who knows if he can return to form? We will need Charles Johnson and Brayton to play mostly at DE, so I would still like to see us bring in one more experienced DT until we find out what we have with some of these other guys in TC and pre-season.

[panthers55]

Johnson is as close to a proven thing as you can get imo.

Funny how his 4 sacks and 25 tackles doesn't even equal the 5 sacks and 45 tackles Brayton had. Johnson is no more productive than Brayton just younger. And before you say Brayton played so much more, how about giving me some stat or fact which shows it. Seriously I can find no stats which demonstate production versus opportunity.

[panthers55]

I think it's too early to say what Irvin can and can't do. Leonard is promising, the jury is still out on Tyler. We signed Ed Johnson so that may be all the vet DT help we're going to get... he played well a few years back in Indy, but who knows if he can return to form? We will need Charles Johnson and Brayton to play mostly at DE, so I would still like to see us bring in one more experienced DT until we find out what we have with some of these other guys in TC and pre-season.

At this point there is no guarantee that Leonard or Irvin will even play. Neither are even finished with their rehab and are coming off being on IR. Not only are they unproven but they are not even healthy at this point. Good thing it is only March.

[SmootsDaddy89]

It seems the only time you can find fault in my arguments is when you make things up and put words in my mouth. No one is saying they were were all that great. In fact I wasn't that upset by Diggs being released or Hoover for that matter. For me getting rid of guys like Brayton and Lewis will hurt us more than Diggs and Hoover because we don't have many quality replacements and particularly don't have much depth at this point. Our defensive line rotation was pretty good last year and will be worse this year. My point is that when you make too many cuts among your veteran leadership and count on 2 many guys to have to step up all at once, it a recipe for disaster.

Yet it turned out fine in 2008. Thanks for driving this debate back around to my original point.

Getting more carries doesn't translate to being better or contributing more. And you seem to be the ones with memory problems not me. At least I have an excuse in any case.

LOL you got 2006 and 2007 mixed up with Hartwig's injury problems, my brain works fine. I'd love to know what does indicate that a running back is contributing more if the number of touches they're given doesn't. I have a feeling it's some vague mental conceptualization you have that can't be defined and therefore is useless to the discussion at hand.

So you are saying that in 7 years under Fox we have found less than 6 players who have come in and started as a rookie with at least 3 of them doing pretty good. And somehow that gives you optimism that with only 5 draft picks we are going to find several starters or contributers on this team right away. And that this should give us cause for optimism. Especially bringing up how great Seidman was and the fact that Colbert was a one hit wonder. And all of this optimism also assumes that everyone of the starters stays healthy and we don't have to go far down the depth chart despite the fact that we have historically have had more than our fair share of injuries like last year for example.

It's probably more than 5 or 6 or whatever. I'm not going to put the time and effort into looking at every draftee that got significant playing time during their rookie year, because all it takes is one example to prove that you're wrong. It hasn't happened as much lately because we're a much more talented team than we were when Fox first took over as head coach. But whatever suits your preconceived notion that this team blows now.

Speaking of inuries we are also assuming that Davis, Louis and Irvin will all stay healthy even though it very common for setbacks and guys with knee injuries to need 2 years for a full recovery. What if Leonard blows out his knee or Davis is slow to recover? With many starter holes and even less depth we better hope we stay healthy or there will be open tryouts at BOA for positions on the team.

Optimism?????? How about delusions of granduer.

Holy f**k, you mean injuries are something teams have to worry with? I had no idea. Thank you panthers55 for breaking this stunning news to us, I'm sure no one even considered the possiblity that some of our players could get hurt this season. Are you going to report on how, when it's really cold outside, that it snows instead of rains next?

[SmootsDaddy89]

Funny how his 4 sacks and 25 tackles doesn't even equal the 5 sacks and 45 tackles Brayton had. Johnson is no more productive than Brayton just younger. And before you say Brayton played so much more, how about giving me some stat or fact which shows it. Seriously I can find no stats which demonstate production versus opportunity.

How about "I don't care, let's see what he does as a starter before throwing him under the bus."

[Snake]

The d-line, at worst, will be average. I highly doubt it will be the swiss cheese some people think it will be though. Having said that, I'd still really, really like to get Brayton/Lewis/both back if we can.

It quite possible we will if they stay in FA and dont get picked up.

[MadHatter]

Funny how his 4 sacks and 25 tackles doesn't even equal the 5 sacks and 45 tackles Brayton had. Johnson is no more productive than Brayton just younger. And before you say Brayton played so much more, how about giving me some stat or fact which shows it. Seriously I can find no stats which demonstate production versus opportunity.

Brayton started and Johnson was a back-up. Hard to compare raw stats in that case.

Brayton was never a great DE at getting pressure. He was much better at stopping the run.

I still think a Brayton type player will be signed.

[PhillyB]

good post, somebody sticky this poo