The Dowdle Mirage - Play Calling Problems

[dpm0409]

1 hour ago, tukafan21 said:

Being happy about a win isn't giving up on them, but when people say things like, "we should just be happy after a win given how bad we've been the last 10 years", that's being happy regardless of how we looked because we don't get a lot of wins, which is straight up loser mentality.

And that's my point, 95% of the people happy about this win are also saying those kind of things.

I'm not upset that we won, I'm upset that we still didn't look good in key areas, namely play calling, if you can't see the difference between those things, then that's a you problem, not a me problem.

This win does NOTHING for us into the future, which is why it's hard for me to get exited over a win against another horrible team where we still didn't look good outside of a few big runs by Rico.  Trust me, if we turned some corner and looked great with Canales calling a great game to keep the Dolphins guessing wrong all day, then yea, I'd be on here celebrating it up, but that's not close to what happened.

Let me clear things up for you:

1.) I enjoy every win....regardless of circumstances.

2.) I've already conceded we have plenty of issues to solve in a previous post.  I have zero issues seeing that.

3.) Fans are allowed to join a win.

[tukafan21]

28 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

It may not happen for a while. Really. It sure won't overnight. 

In the meantime, you can just constantly torture yourself with the overpowering angst and disgust for the team until it miraculously changes or not. Or you can get what enjoyment you can out of wins when they happen, if for no other thing than they lighten the load even for a moment, or perhaps go find a team that more fits your desired results. I mean, honestly, this is about you enjoying your life. If looking back over the last 30 years doesn't give you some at least moments of pride, then, well, you should know by now that it might be time to leave a relationship that's pretty abusive to you and your needs.

Best of the world to you, either way.

The irony here is interesting

You say the change won't happen overnight, so you're good with enjoying the wins despite not showing actual improvement.

You're right, it's not going to change overnight, which is why so many of us are rooting for seeing improvement right now over bad wins right now, because you have to start somewhere if you ever hope to improve.

Winning ugly doesn't help us in the future, but showing improvement would

[tukafan21]

4 minutes ago, dpm0409 said:

Let me clear things up for you:

1.) I enjoy every win....regardless of circumstances.

2.) I've already conceded we have plenty of issues to solve in a previous post.  I have zero issues seeing that.

3.) Fans are allowed to join a win.

That's fair, but I've also never said you can't enjoy a win, there is a big difference between enjoying a win and sticking your head in the sand about our issues, which is what so many who are "just enjoying the win because of how bad we've been lately" are doing.

You can enjoy a win while also seeing the realities, and if you're a fan who can just enjoy those wins, more power to you.  But I'd prefer to see improvement over bad wins, and sure, I'd rather see wins and improvement in the same game, but if that's not an option, give me improvement in a loss over frustration in a win.

I genuinely don't understand why that's a controversial take, as I'm literally rooting for the thing that will help us contend faster, even if that won't be very fast.

Edited 4 hours ago by tukafan21

[dpm0409]

You're saying you'd rather see us lose while showing improvements vs. win games....that's not the goal nor the recipe for contending faster.  If it were, we'd have won the damn Superbowl by now.....come on.

[tukafan21]

12 minutes ago, dpm0409 said:

You're saying you'd rather see us lose while showing improvements vs. win games....that's not the goal nor the recipe for contending faster.  If it were, we'd have won the damn Superbowl by now.....come on.

What?!?!?!

Yes it absolutely is, you're never going to get to contention if you never improve.

Winning 5-6 games a year because the other team was worse (not because you were better) does you no good in becoming a contending team, but improving as a coaching staff and as players 100% helps move the needle towards reaching a contending status.

I used this example all offseason, but just look back at the Lions like 5 years ago.  They kept losing, but were showing improvement in doing so, they went from I think (not looking it up) a 3 win team, to a 6 or 7 win team, to playing in the NFC Championship game in a span of 3 years.

They did it because in those 3 and 6/7 win seasons, they were showing improvement even in their losses, they weren't squeaking by in their wins while still looking terrible in key areas of the game.

THAT is what I'm asking for and why I'd rather see improvement over ugly wins, they are the literal example of what I'm looking for and now they're a true SB contender after picking 2nd in the 2022 draft.

And beyond all of that, your example of "we'd have won the SB right now" is also just nonsense that proves my point.  Because we haven't improved for years despite winning a handful of games each year because the other team was worse than we were.

So why haven't we actually gotten better in all that time yet when we've been winning games ugly instead of losing games while showing improvement?

You're literally proving yourself wrong with this post.

Edited 4 hours ago by tukafan21

[SmokinwithWilly]

1 hour ago, dpm0409 said:

You're saying you'd rather see us lose while showing improvements vs. win games....that's not the goal nor the recipe for contending faster.  If it were, we'd have won the damn Superbowl by now.....come on.

Quality of win matters. An example of absurdity. Would the team be more improved winning an entire season facing off against high school teams or losing against NFL teams. The answer is obvious. NFL teams would require more innovation, more ingenuity, more preparation, more work. That's why losing but improving your quality is more important than just winning without necessarily improving. 

[dpm0409]

Die on this hill if you want.....but I wholeheartedly disagree with about 95% of what you're preaching.  I'm perfectly fine agreeing to disagree.

[Khyber53]

3 hours ago, dpm0409 said:

This is the exact message I've been trying to get through to some on here that are simply insufferable.  Well said. 

I've been here for a loooong time and been through this a lot. And I write a bit on the side, too.

[Khyber53]

2 hours ago, tukafan21 said:

The irony here is interesting

You say the change won't happen overnight, so you're good with enjoying the wins despite not showing actual improvement.

You're right, it's not going to change overnight, which is why so many of us are rooting for seeing improvement right now over bad wins right now, because you have to start somewhere if you ever hope to improve.

Winning ugly doesn't help us in the future, but showing improvement would

The question is, how can you tell which are just bad wins and which are good wins? Is there a measurable, quantitative way to do that or is it just "this fits my storyline" or "yeah, but it's not with the people I want to see it happen with"?

Back in the day, there were a lot of folks, believe it or not that couldn't stand seeing Cam Newton's ascension to a Super Bowl contender. They had all these criticisms but it really boiled down to something that didn't fit their view of how the game should be or how the world is supposed to work.

And then, there was 2003 when John Fox wasn't supposed to have changed a massive losing culture overnight working with a General Manager that came from a newspaper background and a metric butt ton of supposedly washed out free agents and nobodies. Heck, we had a big DE who they thought should have gone on to play basketball (he was a national champ there after all) AND he would have to sit out the beginning of the season for a PED violation. And there we were on the "no disrespect, but you ain't getting respect" tour that had us out gritting teams like the Rams and Eagles in the playoffs and just about sending  Brady home with a loss in the big dance. You know, we didn't deserve to be there in a lot of eyes. We were such nobodies that Muhsin Muhammad did the cover of SI posed with the shoosh don't tell thing because no one considered us anything but popcorn farts in the wind.

So, back to the thing... how do you, you personally, tell good wins from bad wins? Especially only five games into the season. 

Here's my take on why we have two good wins under our belt... building blocks. We kicked Atlanta's teeth in for our home opener. Any defeat of a divisional opponent is an important step in the right direction. If you can do that you are making strides. And with as weak as our division is, we need to be able to do it. And against Miami you had two teams hitting a crossroads at the same time. Both were heading somewhere: one trajectory up, one trajectory down... a loss could cost a coach their job, a win could extend their chances at seeing their vision through. We were kicked in the guts and should have died on the field, but managed to do the second biggest comeback in team history right then and there. To win. Any time you get a win like that, it's a good team-building win.

And it's about the team, isn't it. Look, I've criticized the heck out of Bryce and I'm still not sold on him, but a team doesn't have to win pretty for me to cheer their wins. They've just got to win and show some fight. Right now, they're doing that. 

We don't have a winning record yet, but we could break even this weekend. That means something. It really does. Win the next two and we would have a winning record for the first time since I don't know when. 

 

[tukafan21]

11 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

The question is, how can you tell which are just bad wins and which are good wins? Is there a measurable, quantitative way to do that or is it just "this fits my storyline" or "yeah, but it's not with the people I want to see it happen with"?

Back in the day, there were a lot of folks, believe it or not that couldn't stand seeing Cam Newton's ascension to a Super Bowl contender. They had all these criticisms but it really boiled down to something that didn't fit their view of how the game should be or how the world is supposed to work.

And then, there was 2003 when John Fox wasn't supposed to have changed a massive losing culture overnight working with a General Manager that came from a newspaper background and a metric butt ton of supposedly washed out free agents and nobodies. Heck, we had a big DE who they thought should have gone on to play basketball (he was a national champ there after all) AND he would have to sit out the beginning of the season for a PED violation. And there we were on the "no disrespect, but you ain't getting respect" tour that had us out gritting teams like the Rams and Eagles in the playoffs and just about sending  Brady home with a loss in the big dance. You know, we didn't deserve to be there in a lot of eyes. We were such nobodies that Muhsin Muhammad did the cover of SI posed with the shoosh don't tell thing because no one considered us anything but popcorn farts in the wind.

So, back to the thing... how do you, you personally, tell good wins from bad wins? Especially only five games into the season. 

Here's my take on why we have two good wins under our belt... building blocks. We kicked Atlanta's teeth in for our home opener. Any defeat of a divisional opponent is an important step in the right direction. If you can do that you are making strides. And with as weak as our division is, we need to be able to do it. And against Miami you had two teams hitting a crossroads at the same time. Both were heading somewhere: one trajectory up, one trajectory down... a loss could cost a coach their job, a win could extend their chances at seeing their vision through. We were kicked in the guts and should have died on the field, but managed to do the second biggest comeback in team history right then and there. To win. Any time you get a win like that, it's a good team-building win.

And it's about the team, isn't it. Look, I've criticized the heck out of Bryce and I'm still not sold on him, but a team doesn't have to win pretty for me to cheer their wins. They've just got to win and show some fight. Right now, they're doing that. 

We don't have a winning record yet, but we could break even this weekend. That means something. It really does. Win the next two and we would have a winning record for the first time since I don't know when. 

 

There is no easy way to "measure" it like you ask, it's not scientific of course, but it's almost easiest to judge it by your frustration levels throughout the game at what is going on.

In terms of player performance, it's things like how often you see Bryce throwing uncatchable passes, whether sailing them or because they are thrown into the ground.  For WRs, it's are they making catches, are they dropping it, just how they look out there, etc.

But for me, the big thing this thread was about, was specifically play calling and not to think we had a great called game just because we won and Rico had 200+ yards.

How many times did we line up on 1st and 10 and say to yourself, "welp, here comes another run for 2 yards" and then that's exactly what happened?

Or say a 3rd and 8 on our own 30 and you say, "here comes a screen pass that will only get 5 yards" and then that's exactly what happens?

Canales' play calling seems very predictable, stale, and with little imagination in play design (and many others have felt this same way since last year too).  To me, that is the big reason this game was a "bad win" because it's not like we did anything differently that made us appear to be a better team.  

It's why I say the 200+ yard game is because Rico made great plays, not because Canales called a great game that kept the defense on their heels and it allowed consistent 5-8 yard chunk runs throughout the game.

To that last point, I just saw that of his 206 yards, 169 of them were after contact.  Yet again, more proof that he didn't get his 200 yards because of a well called game by Canales, but by great individual efforts by him (it also pokes the hole in the argument someone made yesterday that said our OL was dominating theirs, as clearly it wasn't based on that stat).

If we come out this week and have unexpected play calling that keeps getting us chunk yards because the Cowboys don't know what is coming next, I'll be the first to congratulate Canales on a well planned and called game that showed marked improvement, regardless of whether or not we won or lost the game.

[Basbear]

tuk21, be honest with me here

A

Tmac 12 recs 223 yards and Panthers lose

OR

B

Tmac 2 recs 8 yards 0 TDs and Panthers WIn

 

Which one are you picking?

[tukafan21]

7 minutes ago, Basbear said:

tuk21, be honest with me here

A

Tmac 12 recs 223 yards and Panthers lose

OR

B

Tmac 2 recs 8 yards 0 TDs and Panthers WIn

 

Which one are you picking?

You won't believe this, but neither with the information at hand

Nobody wants to believe me, but this thread and my issues with the team have absolutely nothing to do with T-Mac.  Do I wish he had more targets or some TD's already?  Of course, but he's 15th in the league in yards and on pace for 1,200 as a rookie, 2nd in the league in 20+ yard catches, 5th in the league in 1st down catches.  

He's on pace to shatter Panthers rookie records and could potentially end up in contention for a Pro Bowl slot depending how the season shakes out.

This thread was about our piss poor offensive play calling, as we're never going to be able to properly develop any of our young offensive weapons this year with how that's been going.

If we're having the same issues as always, then yea, I'm puling for option 1 for my guy, because what really matters isn't changing.

But if you tell me we had a great pass/run mix, keeping the defense off balance, getting chunk yards on a consistent basis, XL, Horn, Coker, Sanders, Evans, etc, make plays that show they're improving.

Then yes, I'll take option B with T-Mac taking a backseat when that other stuff happens, because it's what is best for the future of this franchise.  This season isn't just about T-Mac, it's about improving ALL of our young weapons, but that won't happen with the way Canales has been calling games (and with how Bryce has played).

And again, I'm not going to try and dig out months old posts, but I said this all offseason.  That actual standings wins and loses don't matter to me this year because I never believed we could be contenders.  Showing growth and improvement from the front office, to the coaches, to the players, was most important.

Edited 44 minutes ago by tukafan21

[frankw]

How is this thread still going?

Herm Edwards said it best with his now infamous quote.

Whatever is working ride the hot hand. Worry about tomorrow later.

[Basbear]

3 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

You won't believe this, but neither with the information at hand

Nobody wants to believe me, but this thread and my issues with the team have absolutely nothing to do with T-Mac.  Do I wish he had more targets or some TD's already?  Of course, but he's 15th in the league in yards and on pace for 1,200 as a rookie, 2nd in the league in 20+ yard catches, 5th in the league in 1st down catches.  

He's on pace to shatter Panthers rookie records and could potentially end up in contention for a Pro Bowl slot depending how the season shakes out.

This thread was about our piss poor offensive play calling, as we're never going to be able to properly develop any of our young offensive weapons this year with how that's been going.

If we're having the same issues as always, then yea, I'm puling for option 1 for my guy, because what really matters isn't changing.

But if you tell me we had a great pass/run mix, keeping the defense off balance, getting chunk yards on a consistent basis, XL, Horn, Coker, Sanders, Evans, etc, make plays that show they're improving.

Then yes, I'll take option B with T-Mac taking a backseat when that other stuff happens, because it's what is best for the future of this franchise.  This season isn't just about T-Mac, it's about improving ALL of our young weapons, but that won't happen with the way Canales has been calling games (and with how Bryce has played).

And again, I'm not going to try and dig out months old posts, but I said this all offseason.  That actual standings wins and loses don't matter to me this year because I never believed we could be contenders.  Showing growth and improvement from the front office, to the coaches, to the players, was most important.

 

I fully understand the questioning of Dave and BY, just the timing of your concerns is my problem.

NFL is ultra hard to pull off the perfect game. In all my years Ive never seen a HC have the perfect game plan and have great play call after great play call. 

Tmac has helped in every game, honestly more than I thought he was going to show. It does look like he was in fact the reason to trade AT and allow Tamc to feast on his targets. I have re-watched the wins, I have seen Tmac get red zone looks. Brother, he's about the 80-90% of passing attack. Dave is young inexperienced HC and he's learning on the job, hope he improves along with BYs confidence. 

 

Its going to be alllllll right, trust me as your co-pilot.