shough vs tmac off rookie of the year

[cranky]

1 hour ago, CRA said:

in starts, he has played better, been more efficient and outproduced Bryce by virtually every statistical metric that exists in 2025.  And has the 2 head to heads over Carolina. 

I mean, your jaw should hit the floor.  But not for the reason you are implying.  That freaking stings.  Denying these realities isn't going to help the Panthers build a better team going forward. 

 

 

I have NEVER seen a Panthers's fan so willing to throw their QB under the bus while singing praises for a division rivals' QB. You should just stop pretending you are a Panthers fan and go over to the Saints board. 

[cranky]

1 hour ago, CRA said:

in starts, he has played better, been more efficient and outproduced Bryce by virtually every statistical metric that exists in 2025.  And has the 2 head to heads over Carolina. 

I mean, your jaw should hit the floor.  But not for the reason you are implying.  That freaking stings.  Denying these realities isn't going to help the Panthers build a better team going forward. 

 

 

You just keep making stuff up.

Bryce leads him in QB rating, TD% and INT%.

 

[CRA]

11 minutes ago, cranky said:

I have NEVER seen a Panthers's fan so willing to throw their QB under the bus while singing praises for a division rivals' QB. You should just stop pretending you are a Panthers fan and go over to the Saints board. 

You don't seem to be a Panther fan. You seem to be a fan of a player. 

Me? I don't want bottom-tier offense for my team.  Which is the entirety of the Bryce era.  Both from a team and individual aspect.  Being a Panther fan isn't about pretending Bryce is better than he is. 

[CRA]

8 minutes ago, cranky said:

You just keep making stuff up.

Bryce leads him in QB rating, TD% and INT%.

 

 

It's only made up in your mind because you choose not to read words.  As starters in 2025. 

Comp % - Shough

Pass yards per game - Shough

Rush yards per game - Shough

QB rating - Shough 

Yards per attempt - Shough

TDs per game - Young

Turnovers per game - Young

Bryce is a #1 overall pick, year 3 starter.  Shough is a 2nd round rookie nobody on a worse team.  That my friend, is a red flag of a team doing it wrong.  That team is us.  

and we shouldn't be talking Shough in terms of making BY look bad.  We should be talking about the Carolina kid Drake "Drake Maye" Maye making us look really bad. 

 

[strato]

So, we could evaluate every QB in the league against each other without penalty, but when we include Bryce in a comparison, we lose the fan card. That is the rule?

I knew it was coming. 

It would nice if people could remain rational. 

[ForJimmy]

Shough isn't winning OROTY.  Too small of a sample size.  He has played better than I thought but he is a 26 year old rookie, we are talking 2 years younger than rookie Weinke.  He is going to be 30 after his rookie contract is up.   

[CRA]

3 minutes ago, strato said:

So, we could evaluate every QB in the league against each other without penalty, but when we include Bryce in a comparison, we lose the fan card. That is the rule?

I knew it was coming. 

It would nice if people could remain rational. 

Bryce Young should only be talked about in a vacuum and compared against himself. 

if you talk QB play elsewhere or just offensive production elsewhere? You aren't a Panther fan because the Panthers won't be reflected well. 

[ForJimmy]

Saints were smart with Shough too letting him play at the best part of their schedule.  LAR was rough but then it was CAR, ATL, MIA, TB, NYJ, with TEN, and ATL left.  I'll give it to them, those are some ideal defenses to let your rookie get comfortable on (LAR excluded).  

[strato]

3 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

Saints were smart with Shough too letting him play at the best part of their schedule.  LAR was rough but then it was CAR, ATL, MIA, TB, NYJ, with TEN, and ATL left.  I'll give it to them, those are some ideal defenses to let your rookie get comfortable on (LAR excluded).  

Also, one model of bringing a rooking QB along is sit them to start the year. Other models are sit the whole year, two years, etc.  Let them get their feet wet and adjust to being a pro so it isn’t so big for them. 
Frank wanted to sit Bryce, Tepper made him play him. Pretty sure. And pretty sure Frank was right. 

Edited 54 minutes ago by strato

[CRA]

1 minute ago, ForJimmy said:

Saints were smart with Shough too letting him play at the best part of their schedule.  LAR was rough but then it was CAR, ATL, MIA, TB, NYJ, with TEN, and ATL left.  I'll give it to them, those are some ideal defenses to let your rookie get comfortable on (LAR excluded).  

True.  I think the Saints have done one thing for sure, they look to of hit on the coach.  You see smart coaching in game.  You see smart management of scenarios. 

[ForJimmy]

Just now, CRA said:

True.  I think the Saints have done one thing for sure, they look to of hit on the coach.  You see smart coaching in game.  You see smart management of scenarios. 

Yeah Moore is definitely going to be a problem.  I remember he was the favorite for our job at one point in time.  

[mav1234]

1 hour ago, MasterAwesome said:

Ok fair to judge only his starts.  But you do acknowledge that going from "he's waaaay above league average in a number of categories" to "here's a single stat where he's above league average (not "waaaay") and another where he is exactly at the league average" is a pretty significant backpedal, no?  I'm guessing he's probably in the ~10th range for completion percentage too if we're only looking at starts (I'm too lazy to isolate his starts and do the calculations), so I'll grant you that one too.  But I don't think completion percentage is all that meaningful as a standalone stat if it isn't bolstered by good TD%, Y/A, etc.

On that note, for how much people like posting Passing Charts in here (*cough* CRA) - if you peep Shough's passing charts, he hasn't completed a single 20+ yard pass in the past 3 games combined.  His last one was in Week 13 against the Dolphins, which was a single pass of 24 yards.  I just want to be consistent in how we apply our standards - I think it's always been warranted to criticize Bryce for it (even dating back to his rookie season), but do we suddenly not care about that with Shough?

And yeah I did acknowledge that Saints' fans have reason to be excited about him and complimented his poise, which is giving my props.  Still not sure I agree that he looks better than a "ton" of QBs nor do I think you or anyone have really demonstrated that.  I think you are generally one of the more reasonable level-headed posters which is why I'm confused at what I consider to be rather hyperbolic language about Shough.

I'd edited to be more clear where he was ahead of league average, but realize it was easily missed, sorry.  I do hope he falls off a cliff production wise because if he actually continues at this pace it's highly likely the TDs come and then he'll be a real problem.

Anyway, to the stats... Shough is substantially better than the average in completion percentage, YPG, and INT% (68% vs 64.4% and 237 vs 215 and 1.7 vs 2.2). He is pretty close to the average in Y/A (7.14 vs 7.1) and rating (91.63 vs 91.8). He is a bit below the average in TDs per game (1.3 vs ~1.5, which is hard to average exactly due to the number of players that are part of this stat), QBR (51.54 vs 54.7) and quite a bit below in TD% (3% vs 4.7%). In advanced stats, he's above the league average in intended air yards/attempt (8.1 v 7.7) and on target % (76.8 vs 74.6), while barely below is in bad throw % (16.1 vs 16.0). This jives with what I've seen - decent young player, playing at a level that looks like a veteran starter, on a bad team.

I've always said (and this is true of Bryce too, I even mentioned it this year) that I am less concerned with 30+ yard bombs than consistency at 15+ yards, because you need to be able to threaten past the sticks. Shough is doing that. Vs us in week 15 he had ~one third of his passes 15ish or more yards and he was money on them, and that wasn't really an exception, he has had some nice throws outside of that. 

All that said, dude is just super new to the league, and once film gets out, if he does have limitations they will be exploited. No way he can get OROTY.

And thanks for the kind words - I am prone to hyperbole at times, but I'm also just impressed by Shough. We'll see if he can keep it up (I hope not, unless the Saints randomly trade him lol)

[cranky]

28 minutes ago, CRA said:

It's only made up in your mind because you choose not to read words.  As starters in 2025. 

Comp % - Shough

Pass yards per game - Shough

Rush yards per game - Shough

QB rating - Shough 

Yards per attempt - Shough

TDs per game - Young

Turnovers per game - Young

Bryce is a #1 overall pick, year 3 starter.  Shough is a 2nd round rookie nobody on a worse team.  That my friend, is a red flag of a team doing it wrong.  That team is us.  

and we shouldn't be talking Shough in terms of making BY look bad.  We should be talking about the Carolina kid Drake "Drake Maye" Maye making us look really bad. 

 

I SHOWEDE you my stats. Now show me your stats showing where Shough leads in EVERY catagory.

[CRA]

1 minute ago, cranky said:

I SHOWEDE you my stats. Now show me your stats showing where Shough leads in EVERY catagory.

every post you make, you start moving the goal posts.  I talk about games as a starter.  You just rant about season totals.  I show where he is better as a starter....you demand where it shows he is better at EVERY category lol.