Can someone shed some light on this idea that Newton is dumb?

[teeray]

I've shown you specific examples of white quarterbacks facing questions about their ability to make the transitions to the pros, same as black players have.

Can you show me actual examples of how black quarterbacks are universally held to "a higher standard" or is your evidence that "they just are"?

What you're completely missing here is that the evaluations of all these quarterbacks are done by individuals. There's no "group think" in existence here, and yet you're talking as if some universal double standard exists while suggesting that people who don't believe in this sort of "hive mind" are being naive.

Seriously? :nonod:

Could an individual hold a double standard like this? Sure they can.

Does every individual think this way, or even a majority of them? Please :frown2:

The whole racism defense has pretty much come down to the same argument every single time. "I've seen racist people, therefore people everywhere must either be racist themselves or influenced by racism." The whole notion is just stupid, and as I've said above, the reason people bring it up here is because it's easier to go that route and question someone's character and motivation than it is to actually debate facts.

I have no respect for this kind of personal attack, especially when I see it used against people who've never given me any reason to think there's a single racist thought in their mind.

know how I know you can't read well?? Racial bias =/= racist. Do you not have the ability to comprehend that??

[teeray]

Trying to use a Bleacher Report article to support a football argument is like playing the race card to win one

I guess Narwocki has to print it or else it isn't true. Hotdamn you guys live a blessed life. Count your blessings everyday.

[Icege]

Yes, some individuals are brutally ignorant and believe that skin tone has any remote influence on someone's ability to play football. There are also some individuals who themselves are just as ignorant who so badly need to reinforce this last dragon vs zombie racists war that they actively see and seek it out.

I think yall are really prejudiced towards Asian dudes because they are too intelligent. Time to go trolling Google so that I can "prove" that I'm right[/sarcasm]

[teeray]

Seriously? :nonod:

Could an individual hold a double standard like this? Sure they can.

Does every individual think this way, or even a majority of them? Please :frown2:

Of course not everyone thinks that way. Of course not everybody thinks Cam is a dumb thug Jamarcus Russell redux either.

But if you go to profootballtalk and look at the comments about Cam Newton or Warren Moon. On profootballtalk you can give a thumbs up or thumbs down.

The comments that say Warren Moon is actually the racist is about 90% thumbsup. The posts that question Cam's intelligence is about 75% thumbsup.

Now tell me that the commenters don't matter because they are all crazy people because only crazy people post in these comments. Still it is a landslide and they are the only ones talking apparently smh

[teeray]

One last thing Scot. You do realize that when basketball scouts consistently say white basketball players "have a good court savvy, hustles on every play,has a high basketball IQ, and lacks athleticism, etc." That is also a form of racial bias.

Some people forget that all races are susceptible to racial biases. White people may say things that are racially biased about other white people black people can say things that are racially biased about black people.

Racial biases are generally formed from stereotypes and are usually subconscious and often (especially in athletics) can effect any scout no matter their race or the player they are scouting's race. And it doesn't automatically qualify the person who did it as a racist.

[Marguide]

I've shown you specific examples of white quarterbacks facing questions about their ability to make the transitions to the pros, same as black players have.

Can you show me actual examples of how black quarterbacks are universally held to "a higher standard" or is your evidence that "they just are"?

Of course you can site specific examples. I could do the same and we could continue this back-and-for weeks. That won't accomplish anything. We are talking about something subtle, not something that jumps up and smacks you in the face.

What you're completely missing here is that the evaluations of all these quarterbacks are done by individuals. There's no "group think" in existence here, and yet you're talking as if some universal double standard exists while suggesting that people who don't believe in this sort of "hive mind" are being naive.

Seriously? :nonod:

Could an individual hold a double standard like this? Sure they can.

Does every individual think this way, or even a majority of them? Please :frown2:

The whole racism defense has pretty much come down to the same argument every single time. "I've seen racist people, therefore people everywhere must either be racist themselves or influenced by racism." The whole notion is just stupid, and as I've said above, the reason people bring it up here is because it's easier to go that route and question someone's character and motivation than it is to actually debate facts.

I have no respect for this kind of personal attack, especially when I see it used against people who've never given me any reason to think there's a single racist thought in their mind.

You don't seem to be able to grasp the difference between targeted accusations re: racism and an overall cultural or racial bias. All this talk of personal attacks and questioning individual's motivations misses the point by a country mile.

The question of having an overall higher standard or threshold for acceptance for black QB's is no different than the hurdles faced in the past for black coaches and GM's. To pretend this hasn't existed is in fact naive. :yesnod:

[KJDaniel31]

And KJ if you want to explain to me why Cam has been called a thug, dumb, lazy, disingenuous, please do. His past has been deeply vetted and I just don't see it (nor does Hurney or Rivera) . I don't see why people call this kid these things when in the grand scheme of life he has done nothing wrong.

Really? He has done nothing to warrant these feelings? How can you say that?

Sorry, I can't continue to dumb myself with the rest of that post...well, I'm pretty sure this one made me dumber too.

[TheWiz]

One last thing Scot. You do realize that when basketball scouts consistently say white basketball players "have a good court savvy, hustles on every play,has a high basketball IQ, and lacks athleticism, etc." That is also a form of racial bias.

Some people forget that all races are susceptible to racial biases. White people may say things that are racially biased about other white people black people can say things that are racially biased about black people.

Racial biases are generally formed from stereotypes and are usually subconscious and often (especially in athletics) can effect any scout no matter their race or the player they are scouting's race. And it doesn't automatically qualify the person who did it as a racist.

:iagree:

This guy gets it!

[mav1234]

I don't disagree MAV. I just get irritated by people who just think it is blasphemy that anyone question whether racial bias plays a role in the perception of black QBs.

Nearly every black QB we have discussed I have personally heard from some people say "He is too dumb to play QB". Not on TV, radio, or print but in everyday life.

Some people seem to believe that if Narwocki didn't say it than those perceptions don't exist.

They certainly do. Hell, the "idea" out in the general population that Cam Newton is dumb is in no small part motivated by some of that. The things some people say about him, or about black QBs in general, are more than a bit silly. And as you said, by no means is it limited to white people stereotyping black people. Hell, there's the McNabb thread in which a black boxer says McNabb isn't black enough. There's unreasonable bullpoo thrown all over, prejudiced stuff that has no place in sports but it will be there because unfortunately bias is a part of our society.

My issue with the "race stuff" is that some posters in the past have used "racial bias" as a way to basically dismiss some posters who they disagree with, or ideas they disagree with. So even though I know it exists I don't mention it actively unless it's obvious (aka that one poster months back who said not to draft Cam because black QBs suck in the NFL... kinda obvious that criticism was based on race:P)

TBH, Newton has brought a fair amount of reasonable criticism on himself. His past has brought him question marks among those of us who do not have the resources to investigate it to the depth the Panthers have. I trust their judgment but I'm not going to pretend the stupid poo he did didn't happen(not saying you do Tee but some around here seem to). The "Entertainer and icon" comments made people question his dedication. The offense he came from, the limited time he spent in D1, made some people wonder about his transition.

At the same time, throughout the process he has continually put himself out there as far as his work and his development and I really can only give him props for that. It may not guarantee success but it certainly means he is on the right path, and I'm excited to see him enter a new chapter in his life.

[teeray]

Really? He has done nothing to warrant these feelings? How can you say that?

IMO no. If you think buying a stolen laptop is thuggery than you live a sheltered life.

And Hurney and Rivera who spent a hell of a lot of time and money investigating these things and have more resources than any of these people have vehemently defended Cam on the character stuff as well.

[teeray]

They certainly do. Hell, the "idea" out in the general population that Cam Newton is dumb is in no small part motivated by some of that. The things some people say about him, or about black QBs in general, are more than a bit silly. And as you said, by no means is it limited to white people stereotyping black people. Hell, there's the McNabb thread in which a black boxer says McNabb isn't black enough. There's unreasonable bullpoo thrown all over, prejudiced stuff that has no place in sports but it will be there because unfortunately bias is a part of our society.

My issue with the "race stuff" is that some posters in the past have used "racial bias" as a way to basically dismiss some posters who they disagree with, or ideas they disagree with. So even though I know it exists I don't mention it actively unless it's obvious (aka that one poster months back who said not to draft Cam because black QBs suck in the NFL... kinda obvious that criticism was based on race:P)

TBH, Newton has brought a fair amount of reasonable criticism on himself. His past has brought him question marks among those of us who do not have the resources to investigate it to the depth the Panthers have. I trust their judgment but I'm not going to pretend the stupid poo he did didn't happen(not saying you do Tee but some around here seem to). The "Entertainer and icon" comments made people question his dedication. The offense he came from, the limited time he spent in D1, made some people wonder about his transition.

At the same time, throughout the process he has continually put himself out there as far as his work and his development and I really can only give him props for that. It may not guarantee success but it certainly means he is on the right path, and I'm excited to see him enter a new chapter in his life.

I get this. And I agree with that aspect of the frustration. Every time someone questions anything Cam does they get the race card thrown in their face whether it is warranted or not.

This is why it just goes around in circles (and I am a big part to blame for it) because some people get defensive about having the race card thrown at them every time they criticize Cam Newton and other people feel like Cam Newton is being held to a higher standard and is being unfairly labeled bc of racial stereotypes.

And no matter what I type or you type it is likely not going to change that. :sad:

[KJDaniel31]

IMO no. If you think buying a stolen laptop is thuggery than you live a sheltered life.

And Hurney and Rivera who went a hell of a lot of time and money investigating these things and have more resources than any of these people have vehemently defended Cam on the character stuff as well.

1. Are you insinuating that his only action to date which has garnered these criticism is buying a stolen laptop? You don't seem to be very accurate with many things you claim so far in my deelings with you.

2. All the other first round picks who had major question marks on their character, yet were still drafted, means nothing? Just because we picked him doesnt mean it wasnt a terrible pick. I remember Adam Jones having major questions about his character, yet the Titans overlooked them in large part because of the glowing endorsment his S&C coach gave them. They were wrong. This is one of MANY examples where teams feel like they have a guy figured out, and are dead wrong.

[jtnc]

Really? He has done nothing to warrant these feelings? How can you say that?

Sorry, I can't continue to dumb myself with the rest of that post...well, I'm pretty sure this one made me dumber too.

No he hasn't. Buying a stolen laptop is nothing, people do it all the time on Ebay(without knowing) he has a strong work ethic so how the hell can you call him lazy? He's worked hard to get where he is now and still is working hard to go further.

This is nothing, but the same people who sterotype him as being Jamarcus Russell.

[jherald]

We need something more to discuss.