MasterAwesome

It seems like a stretch to assign so-and-so personal preferences to Canales from his years as QB Coach for guys like Russell Wilson and Geno Smith. I think lumping Canales' entire employment history together muddies the water, when the specific role he played is pretty damn important. His role as QB Coach and his role as Offensive Coordinator shouldn't be indiscriminately bucketed together broadly as "offenses he has been involved in". Like I don't think McCown deserves to have Bryce Young linked to him as a personal preference in QB type, simply because he was tasked with coaching him. Canales has only had one season with any kind of play-calling authority to try and deduce what offense he likes to run, and it's a matter of cause-and-effect as to whether he utilized the deep pass because that's his general preference, or if he did it because he had a roster that was built to take advantage of it (Baker + Mike Evans). Whether intentionally or not, I think treating this pairing as a mismatch prematurely paints Canales as some kind of stubborn one-trick pony who is unable to adapt his scheme to his roster's strengths/weaknesses. I don't know whether he is or not (because his sample size is way too small), but at the end of the day I think that's the bare minimum we would expect of a head coach/offensive coordinator - designing an offensive system that complements your roster. I don't think that requires him to be a "grand wizard". If he's the type of coach who is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, then he's not the right guy with or without Bryce Young at QB.

Meh, it's hard enough to sustain excitement for the preseason and this will make it that much harder lol. But my bar for this season was always just hoping to see significant growth from Bryce and the team from the start to the finish, rather than expecting to come out the gate swinging from Week 1 (new coach, new offensive system, new o-line, huge roster turnover, etc.). So this doesn't necessarily change anything if Bryce ultimately does end up sitting out the entire preseason and we come out looking sluggish and out of sync Week 1.

Yeah, old school as in stout D + heavy run. We had the most conservative dink-and-dunk gameplan under Wilks. That first half against the Rams was the wildest thing I’ve ever seen. What part of that is incompatible with Young at QB? I would think that’s a match made in heaven in your eyes.

You think my original post you quoted was even remotely suggesting it's not possible to get a deep pass off in 2.7 seconds? Maybe you should re-read it...it seems your irritation stems from your own confusion. Don't quote me to make a redundant "point" that I agree with and then get sassy for how I respond to it. Even though your point is obvious and bland, the entire crux of your argument revolved around irrelevant calculations involving average velocity; so I don't think it's nitpicky to have questioned that.

I follow your logic but that's an overly simplistic and reductive approach. It doesn't really make sense to just apply a blanket average velocity to every type of NFL throw. Certain passes are going to require a bullet pass into a tight window. Certain passes are going to require touch. Launching a 50 yard pass downfield to an Adam Thielen in 2.7 seconds of pocket time is going to require a lofty rainbow pass with a lot less velocity. Even simply swapping Thielen for a receiver like Ja'Marr Chase is going to drastically change the velocity requirement on that throw. A metric like "average velocity" when accounting for every single type of NFL throw is pretty meaningless.

That's true but I also hear so many of the usual suspects complaining on those deep passes that the ball "floats in the air" too long. That's the only way to throw <2.7 second deep shots. There's no such thing as a <2.7 second deep bullet pass considering the receiver needs time to actually run down the field.

Yeah I agree, I didn't mean to make it sound like I shared their concern. Just that I have confidence that Canales would step in if Bryce isn't doing what he's supposed to be doing. I do feel like things are going by design; Canales seems to be very hands-on with his offensive vision which makes sense because that's his background. He for sure has repeatedly emphasized the 2.7 seconds thing so I think you're spot on with that. Yep I've seen a few of those deep passes you've mentioned but I can't remember if those were all 1-on-1s? Or were any of them during 11-on-11s? Cause I would draw a distinction between the two, but I can't remember off the top of my head and it's also still super early in camp. I think people act like this is a pattern this offseason because they're carrying over grievances from last season when I think we need to not necessarily give Bryce a 100% clean slate, but the Bryce/Canales combo.

You've gotta think Canales would step in and "demand" (for lack of a better word) some deep ball attempts during practice if it's a glaring pattern with Bryce. There's no way fans notice it and Canales doesn't, and Canales doesn't seem like the type of coach to coddle Bryce. He's already been about as critical as a coach can be towards his starting QB: called him "streaky" one practice, and "good, not great" last night. Which makes me wonder if it's by design for some reason...or if in cases like last night, the o-line was just getting manhandled all night (with Zavala and Traore starting) which in turn created a lack of opportunity. If it's genuinely just Bryce being extremely conservative, then I almost put at least equal blame on Canales for not intervening since practice is THE time to be incorporating downfield shots for a QB who lacked that weapon in his arsenal last season. Especially if we're to assume, as some people are, that Canales' offense leans on a healthy dose of downfield passing as with Baker and Geno in previous years.

So can someone clarify if the starting o-line was out there? I’m seeing something about Clowney destroying some RT named Badara Traore. Did Moton have the night off? Cause that would explain some of the o-line struggles tonight. I also saw some mention of Zavala getting a lot of snaps (which would DEFINITELY explain the o-line struggles), but not sure if that was 1st team or 2nd team.

I still don't see why Bryce's ceiling can't be a Drew Brees. We're talking about ceiling...i.e. the absolute best case scenario (not what he is likely to become). So he's miles away from that comparison, but I think they have similar strengths (brain, poise, anticipation) and similar weaknesses (physical limitations in size and arm strength). I think the biggest obstacles to Bryce being in remotely the same league as Brees are his accuracy (particularly with his deep ball) and his sloppy footwork. But Canales is making it a point of emphasis to coach up his footwork, and footwork is inextricably tied to a QB's accuracy.

It's hard to say cause the NFL obviously takes a huge backseat to college football down here (I live in Greenville SC). I haven't met many Panthers fans either, but I don't know how much of that is because Clemson/USC overpowers all football conversations.

It's too soon to say. Apparently Deven Thompkins who we signed 6 days ago is already standing out in training camp too.

Do we even know he's really 6'6" though? I would have to see a picture of him standing next to maybe a mid-size tree or a Stop sign for reference to be convinced. We all know the official Combine measurements are a lie, considering Bryce is actually 5'2, not 5'10.

Unless you want to contest the RAS as an acceptable metric of athleticism...which I would think is an unpopular opinion.

I don't even think the answer was 23-10 (i.e. 13). "If you were born 10 years ago, how old would you be" - you'd be 10 years old...period. The "you're 23 years old..." preceding the question is irrelevant and is why the framing of the question seems to have confused a lot of people, yourselves included.

Yeah I agree 100% about WR/Scheme. I just find it ironic that the people who fail to recognize that, are the ones who would see a passing chart like that and unknowingly think it belongs to a JAG game manager ("game manager" in a pejorative sense) and not the reigning Super Bowl champion/potential greatest QB of all time in his prime. It feels like some people just have a personal intuitive belief or desire of how the game is/should be played and it sometimes contradicts reality. How many times do we hear that the run game is antiquated and that this is an offense-driven league? Yet...3 of the top 4 teams last year had Top 5 rushing attacks. 3 of the top 4 teams also had Top 5 defenses...including, again, the reigning Super Bowl champs who were essentially carried all season by that defense. Yet people still want to believe that the Chiefs success last year was on the back of Mahomes. Yes, Mahomes is incredible and an elite QB is always obviously a huge asset to have. But the Mahomes last year felt a lot more like the "just 1 of 11" type QB that Canales has been preaching that is part of the formula, performing within his role and distributing the pass efficiently rather than playing Superman and carrying the team.

Not only was Mahomes not in the top group, he was apparently one of the worst deep passers in the league last year. Yet he won the Super Bowl...hmm....

Well now you're making me defend things I've never said. I've never claimed that throw was "impressive". I just think you have an unrealistic standard for deep passes in general, and I also think you're overreacting to this one clip. You guys claim that Bryce basically never attempts deep passes (even in practice) and you expect him to instantly nail the timing on a deep throw to Diontae? These things require many many reps to master between a QB and his receiver. Even if I grant you that 55 yards is Bryce Young's absolute max air distance on his throws - then presumably all it would take is Bryce throwing the ball half a second earlier and then that pass is on the money without Diontae slowing down. These are exactly the types of things that training camp is meant to work through. I think you're still downplaying how hard it is to make a 55-yard throw on the money to a receiver in stride, even if we're talking straight line in practice with zero pressure in your face. It'd be comparable to, say, the pinpoint accuracy it would require to toss a football 55 yards into a standard commercial trash can (let's say 55 gallon). Do you think that's a super easy thing that every elite NFL QB would do on every pass in practice with no pressure? A throw like Bryce's in the clip is technically significantly harder because of the aforementioned timing when factoring in an actual receiver rather than a stationary target.

I don't think throwing 55+ yard passes in stride with zero WR adjustment is as commonplace as you think. Even significantly shorter throws than that from elite NFL QBs routinely have receivers slowing down or adjusting to the pass in some way. If the receiver catches it and scores, no one cares or dwells on an underthrown ball. Remember Cam's first NFL TD pass against the Cardinals? That ball was significantly underthrown to a wide open Steve Smith and yet everyone was hype. I saw a lot of underthrown deep balls from Stroud to wide open receivers last year but no one cares cause their talent and scheme allowed for a margin of error...ours didn't. That's what separates good teams from bad teams.

Right...the bolded is the rational takeaway from this. One of the best corners in his athletic prime running deep in coverage against an almost 34-year-old Thielen who even 10 years ago was never known for his athleticism. The rest sounds like you're nitpicking to explain why this throw wasn't *perfection*, rather than why it was "not good", which was the original claim I was challenging. The gap between "not good" and "perfect" is quite enormous. I am willing to bet impartial observers would watch this clip and unanimously consider this at least a "good" throw into blanket coverage. Do you disagree? You mentioned on Bryce's other deep ball where the receiver (I think Diontae) had to slow down a bit towards the end. Do you see Thielen letting up even a little bit on this one? Seems like he threw it to a max speed Thielen in stride...but as you correctly pointed out, this is a nightmare match-up for Thielen against Jaycee Horn who was probably lightly jogging to stay in stride with him. Trying to extrapolate beyond that is quite desperate IMO.

So articulate specifically what was awful about this throw and what a good deep passer would've done to make this a catch.

Yeah we know Thielen isn't explosive, which is the standard you seem to be holding him to. He may not be in the top 100 in YPC or YAC, but he was 12th in the league in 1st Downs. He's a reliable chain-mover in the short to intermediate range, in the mold of a Julian Edelman late in his career. There is a place for these types of receivers in an NFL offense, especially one led by a QB like Bryce Young who seems to live in that short-intermediate range. I agree that Thielen shouldn't be the focal point of an offense, but the way you continuously characterize Thielen's contributions is a bit reductive and dismissive IMO (i.e. "force fed BS routes"). I've heard you talk about Hunter Renfrow on these boards a bit, and you acknowledge that Renfrow fits a niche role in a specific type of offense but you also say that you think he would benefit Young. I 100% agree with you on that. My point of disagreement however is that you seem to think more highly of a Renfrow than a Thielen, when they're remarkably similar. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your position and you would feel the exact same if you swapped Thielen and Renfrow. This is Renfrow's best season to date (top), against Thielen's last season with the Panthers (bottom).

I'm not super optimistic about either of them on their own as individual players. But yeah as a duo, they just seem (on paper) to be a perfect complement to one another. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Johnson has Top 10 numbers this year.

Oh really? Don't make me release my DMs...!!

I'm pretty sure the "Cool" is just a play on words, considering it's a "cooling trailer". Clowney says this is the first time he's had a cooling trailer and he's played for 5 other teams before us, so it's at least somewhat innovative.