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A Cautionary Tale - Tampa Bay Opener

Jeremy Igo

By Jeremy Igo,
in Carolina Panthers

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CRA Grand Master

CRA

Posted
Posted

Thanks for a much better attempt at answering this than the guy that typed "yes". Let us both concede that neither of us have seen opposing LB as much as we have seen ours. Your opening statement is also applicable to David in my opinion. I will try to present some stats supporting my argument however that David is possiby as talented if not more.

In 2012 and 2013 Kuechly had 12 tackles for loss each year, where as David had 20 each. Also in terms of solo tackles David has always had Kuechly beat (112 to 93). I believe David is the better one when it comes to sniffing out a play and shutting it down for minimal gain. The way he plays, he is an enforcer and a head hunter. Both the guys are considered sure tacklers.

Now when it comes to pass coverage though, David is possibly one of the best LBs out there. I don't have to say much about pass rushing, David is one of the fastest there is at his position and a very efficient blitzer as indicated by PFF on number of pass rushing opportunities vs pressures generated. Overall I believe PFF had him ranked as the 5th best player in all NFL. Now Kuechly has some awards that David never did, I believe it has nothing to do with Luke being better, but only him being more popular and recognizable based on draft status.

Mark Barron is somehow considered one of the good/feared safety according to random football guys on NFL Network or the commentators during games. But actually he is mediocre, I guess he enjoys that fame due to his draft status as well. I personally think your LB crew including Luke are just supporting cast to the excellence that is your D-line. I also don't think Luke is the best player on your defense. I am sure some of you would agree with me on that. Yet he is a hot name and gets to enjoy the success of his whole defense.

As far as the individual numbers....David doesn't play next to Thomas Davis. If he did, it would be hard to argue his numbers wouldn't drop.

Davis has been healthy, and despite not getting national love....a healthy Davis is a top tier LB.

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Regulator16 Newbie

Regulator16

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I guarantee none of ya'll watch Lavonte David outside of the two games a year we play you guys. Luke Kuechly is a great LB, best MLB in the game if you ask me. But you are talking about two different types of players when you want to compare him to Lavonte. Two of the biggest differences between them are...

 

1) tackling at the point of attack. Lavonte leads the league over the past two years in tackles for loss with somewhere around the 43-45 range. Only JJ Watt is even close to sniffing that...with the next person after that being around 20-22. Lavonte attacks the line of scrimmage. He'll turn a second or third down into a longer play because of this ability to attack the line and get tackles for loss. Being able to stop a play behind the line of scrimmage or just 1-2yards beyond it is a huge deal. Luke on the other hand, makes majority of his tackles beyond the line of scrimmage. As you said, he is one of the best sideline to sideline players in the league...but none the less, his tackles come down field 3-5 yards majority of the time. 

 

2) Defensive help. Lavonte had McCoy...thats it for his front 7. McCoy and Lavonte. Luke has Johnson, Hardy, Davis, Star...and so on. When an offense has to worry about the front 4 you guys have...it clears the way for Luke to make that many more plays. When an offense has to worry about just McCoy, they can ensure/add the help for that line to get to the next level to block the LBs(in this case Lavonte). Yeah you can claim having better players could lead to less tackles, but no, that isn't always the case. Having better defensive weapons leads to more openings for the other defenders...and it all starts up front in the trenches. Good defensive lineman, leads to more attention from the OL to pick them up, leads to LBs having better shots at getting tackles and making plays.

 

And dismiss Lavonte all you want...but his 2013 stat line was the greatest defensive season performance by an LB since Ray Lewis won the DPOY in 2003.

 

Should be a great game. I think both offenses will need to find help from their O-line in order to do anything on offense.

 

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CRA Grand Master

CRA

Posted
Posted

I guarantee none of ya'll watch Lavonte David outside of the two games a year we play you guys. Luke Kuechly is a great LB, best MLB in the game if you ask me. But you are talking about two different types of players when you want to compare him to Lavonte. Two of the biggest differences between them are...

1) tackling at the point of attack. Lavonte leads the league over the past two years in tackles for loss with somewhere around the 43-45 range. Only JJ Watt is even close to sniffing that...with the next person after that being around 20-22. Lavonte attacks the line of scrimmage. He'll turn a second or third down into a longer play because of this ability to attack the line and get tackles for loss. Being able to stop a play behind the line of scrimmage or just 1-2yards beyond it is a huge deal. Luke on the other hand, makes majority of his tackles beyond the line of scrimmage. As you said, he is one of the best sideline to sideline players in the league...but none the less, his tackles come down field 3-5 yards majority of the time.

2) Defensive help. Lavonte had McCoy...thats it for his front 7. McCoy and Lavonte. Luke has Johnson, Hardy, Davis, Star...and so on. When an offense has to worry about the front 4 you guys have...it clears the way for Luke to make that many more plays. When an offense has to worry about just McCoy, they can ensure/add the help for that line to get to the next level to block the LBs(in this case Lavonte). Yeah you can claim having better players could lead to less tackles, but no, that isn't always the case. Having better defensive weapons leads to more openings for the other defenders...and it all starts up front in the trenches. Good defensive lineman, leads to more attention from the OL to pick them up, leads to LBs having better shots at getting tackles and making plays.

And dismiss Lavonte all you want...but his 2013 stat line was the greatest defensive season performance by an LB since Ray Lewis won the DPOY in 2003.

Should be a great game. I think both offenses will need to find help from their O-line in order to do anything on offense.

1. I watch David. You also have to account for LB positions... The fact David plays OLB factors into his tackles for loss vs being the MLB. Roles and what is asked matters. Throw in an OLB like Von Miller....he is asked to be a much different player and it reflects in the stats.

2. The fact he plays around other talent not just up front but beside Davis also limits the plays he makes....it works both ways. Bc his teammates are making plays getting people off the field. Also his rookie year he had dog poo in front of him at both DT spots.

And FINALLY, what you overlooked....snaps. David in the Buc D plays significantly more defensive snaps. More time on the field means more stats....more doesn't always equal better. Now saying that doesn't make thing null and void but again, it is another factor. I mean, the snap count you could look at it from the perspective David has played in many more games to get some of his stastical numbers

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Regulator16 Newbie

Regulator16

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Posted

1. I watch David. You also have to account for LB positions... The fact David plays OLB factors into his tackles for loss vs being the MLB. Roles and what is asked matters. Throw in an OLB like Von Miller....he is asked to be a much different player and it reflects in the stats.

2. The fact he plays around other talent not just up front but beside Davis also limits the plays he makes....it works both ways. Bc his teammates are making plays getting people off the field. Also his rookie year he had dog poo in front of him at both DT spots.

And FINALLY, what you overlooked....snaps. David in the Buc D plays significantly more defensive snaps. More time on the field means more stats....more doesn't always equal better. Now saying that doesn't make thing null and void but again, it is another factor. I mean, the snap count you could look at it from the perspective David has played in many more games to get some of his stastical numbers

Valid points. Thus proving yet and still, two different players and roles. But to say one is better than other, as you said "roles and what is asked matters", is an over-statement.

 

Look forward to watching the game. But honestly...the whole "run" mentality this post is bases on, isn't gonna work. Better chance to throw against this secondary(who hasn't really played together much during the preseason due to injuries) than run against them. Carolina's line is just as shaky as Tampa's line, so don't count on the run game.  

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CRA Grand Master

CRA

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Posted

Valid points. Thus proving yet and still, two different players and roles. But to say one is better than other, as you said "roles and what is asked matters", is an over-statement.

Look forward to watching the game. But honestly...the whole "run" mentality this post is bases on, isn't gonna work. Better chance to throw against this secondary(who hasn't really played together much during the preseason due to injuries) than run against them. Carolina's line is just as shaky as Tampa's line, so don't count on the run game.

Luke is the best MLB

I would say David is the best 4-3 OLB

David is a beast. But he will never be an apples to apples comparison to Luke

As for the game, Stewart could potentially run on them but Carolina for whatever reason feels obligated to have Williams run for 0 yards against your stout front. Carolina will run. It is what they want to be. That was the gameplan every week last season regardless of opponent

But yeah, Olsen/Benjamin vs Jackson/Evans....whatever QB hits them the best should win.

Newton being so limited also hurts as he bails is out and keeps the chains moving so often converting with his legs. A one dimensional Newton is something we will see for the first time.

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TheRumGone Grand Master

TheRumGone

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lavonte david is a fuging beast. And i'll never understand people trying to say keek or david is better. that's some espn poo.

 

the positions they play are so radically different.

 

david vs davis? david, for sure. but TD is a fuging athletic animal too. and he's just now feeling fully recovered from 3 ACL injuries (lost the brace this year)

 

and from preseason he looks like he is about to have the best year of his career. he was absolutely dominant against the pats when they took keek out. I would kill for lavonte on this team though. Keek and david. good gawd.

 

 

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rayzor Grand Master

rayzor

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like i said in the prediction thread...its all about who does better, their offense against our defense or our offense against their defense.

 

their D is good for sure and lovie is no slouch, but our D is better...that doesnt really matter, tho. david won't be facing keek or TD so measuring them against each other is kind of pointless. what matters is their defense going against our offense.

 

i know that we got our issues like cam maybe limping a little or having a sore rib, but we've all seen him play and know the guy is a fighter and he'll make things happen. and yes, he does have new receivers, but guess who else does? josh mccown. new receivers....new offense with a brand new OC with no previous experience against pro-level defenses who, get this, may not even be there for the opening game as he's sick and at home. guess who is going to be calling the plays if he isn't there? marcus arroyo...a 34 year old QB coach who, like tedford, has no experience against pro level defenses as a player or a coach.

 

so what we have here is

CAM FRIKKIN' NEWTON (entering the 4th year in a system he has grown and matured in)

with a healthy jonathan stewart and the tolldozer

multiple TE sets once again (finally)

a new (more sure-handed) WR corps featuring one of the most, if not THE most impressive WRs from this class who looks to be every bit the big time target and play making beast we had hoped for.

against

a very good and respectable defense headed up by a respectable defensive minded coach in lovie smith in his first year with this team

 

and

 

josh mccown...an older journeyman QB who has never been anything more than mediocre with a new team, new receivers, new system, new OC and playcaller (who might be the back up play caller) in their first real game together.

against

one of the top 2-3 defense in the league

 

now seriously...all you guys that are calling for a loss for the panthers, do you HONESTLY believe that the buc offense will score more against our stud defense than our offense will score against their defense? please tell me why.

 

do you have that little respect for our defense? how much do you think we will be scored on? i honestly see our defense being able to score more than their offense.

 

do you have that little respect for our offense that you don't think that they will be able to score more points than the panther D will allow?

 

not only do you really underestimate what our team can do, but you are really overestimating what the new buc team can do. you must've seriously drunk some of that MMQB that says the bucs will be the best team in the nfcs.

 

and before you bring up that last opening game against the bucs with a new coach, etc....this isnt that year. rivera is a different and better coach, cam has grown more into his own, we have a keek led defense with him in his third year....all aspects of this team have improved from that game.

 

we may not blow them away, but us losing that game? i just don't see that happening. and screw that whole thing about always losing the first game. we lost last year opener against the team that was the best in the league last year....and we almost pulled it off and that was even before riverboat ron showed up. we are not destined to lose that game. we aren't more likely to lose because of our past losses on season openers. this is a new season with a team that should be picking up where it left off last year playing a team that is starting over.

 

forget what the "experts" are saying. this is our game for the taking.

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gettlemanjack Newbie

gettlemanjack

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Bucs new OC (age 52) underwent an unspecified medical procedure and could be away for a while

Lovie:

“A lot of people have asked about Jeff Tedford and how he’s doing. He’s getting better,'' Smith said. "We’re taking our time with him. Again, he’s getting better each day. When he’ll be back here fulltime? I don’t know. When he’ll be available fulltime, whether he will be able to go this week for the game and all those questions, we don’t have answered right now. Just know that he’s getting better and we’ll see how that all plays out. In the meantime, the rest of our offensive staff will pick up for Jeff"

McCown:

“Obviously, Jeff’s been leading our offense through the whole off-season so any time you take a piece away, there can be some disruptiveness,'' quarterback Josh McCown said.

"But the coaches seem like they are, so far, doing a great job picking up the slack and doing what we need to do.''

“It’s a credit to Lovie for having a plan, having a thought process to say, “hey, we’re going to move forward with the plan we have in place,’' McCown said.

"And I’ve been looking at Carolina. The nice thing about it, our eyes have been on them for an extended period of time, probably more than I’ll look at any other team. I think we feel really good about that.''

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