For the Panthers now, and Cam's future, Shula has to go

[tiger7_88]

16 hours ago, panthers55 said:

So those close to Cam telling him to preserve his body and not take so many hits, arent including the coaches?  I thought I heard Rivera publically say on multiple occasions that he thinks that Cam is taking too many hits.

A bit hypocritical when its THE COACHES calling about 10-12 runs per game where Cam is pretty much required to take a hit, no?

[luke nukem]

Your not gunna fire Shula without Firing Rivera, take that into consideration.

[Craig Pruitt]

While I believe a different OC would bebefit Cam and the team, I can't blame Shula for everything. We all realize that Rivera believes in the strong defense/strong running game philosophy. I don't believe we have the offensive line/personnel to have a dominant rushing game.

1)Our OT's are mediocre run blockers at best.  

2)The interior is good but not dominant.

3) We don't have blocking fullback.

4) Jonathan Stewart is solid back but we all know his injury history

5) Whitaker and Artis-Payne are ok but neither seems to suited for a feature back role and might struggle to make some other rosters in the league.

Under these conditions is it a surprise that Shula and the team have to rely on Cam to get a large portion of our rushing yards?

Im not his biggest fan, but I believe Shula's offense would be much better if he had the talent that John Fox had on the O-Line and in the backfield during the last decade (Gross, Wharton, a young Kalihl, I can't remember our RG...sorry, Jeff Utah {pre injury}, B. Hoover at FB, and D.WILLIAMS and Stewart in their primes.)

I think the FO has failed to build a team capable of playing the offensive style that Rivera wants to run so Shula is having to force some square pegs into some round holes. When you combine this with his own shortcomings you set the stage for the mess we have now.

For all the talk of Hog Mollies from DG, you'd think he'd go out get some via draft, trade, or FA. Next offseason is going to be critical.

 

[DaveThePanther2008]

On ‎10‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 6:43 PM, electro's horse said:

Great Write Up.... Sorry didn't want to repeat the whole opening Post but wanted to comment to your take.

I think your comment about Shula and the college offense is right on the money.  Week in and week out I watch teams run left and right and do well at it. Inside and out.  And I wonder why we don't do that.   Yeah yeah yeah I get the 30+ games rushing over 100 yds but that is severely skewed because Cam picks up 30-50 yds per game.  So while we gained 100 yds.  Our RBs only got 50-70 yds.  Consistently.   I go crazy when we get stuffed at the line over and over again.   We have a top notch interior line and should be able to open up holes but (with read option) by the time it takes to hand the ball off those holes are closed  Stop with the damn read option.  Go to a straight hand off and let the running backs do their job. I would love to see him use the traditional play action and keep the shotgun to a minimum. 

Shula's offense as a college type offense seems to fit the answer.   I would love to see someone who is ingenuitive and smart to open this offense up.  I think we have the talent.  I think this team could be so much more offensively.   Even better than last year.

Once again, Great write up. 

[CWORS]

Yeah time for him to go!!

[panthers55]

9 hours ago, tiger7_88 said:

A bit hypocritical when its THE COACHES calling about 10-12 runs per game where Cam is pretty much required to take a hit, no?

Calling a read option is not telling Can to run, he has the option to pitch the ball or hand off. Using your logic he stands a good chance of getting hit every time he drops back to pass and holds the ball. Do you think coaches are telling him to do that also. Cam runs the offense and can change the play to what he wants. Let's be real here, Can is a big muscular guy who dares people to hit him by openly telling them if they don't want him to run for a first down then stop him.  He invites contact and rarely slides down. Lets stop the whole victim characterization as if he has to do what the coaches suggest and running the ball isn't usually his idea. Just like the issue of Cam riding his Hoverboard in traffic, Rivera let's him be Cam and Cam thinks he is 10 feet tall and bulletproof.  I promise you he is going to have less designed run plays and when he takes off 90% of the time it will be his idea not the coaches.

[electro's horse]

Obviously the onus to change his play in the open field has to fall on Cam, and no one is suggesting otherwise. The goal line hit in Atlanta was ridiculous. 

that said, he's not calling run between the tackles on like 2nd and 8, right into the teeth of the difference. 

It's not just the kill shots; it's the repetitive poundings at the bottom of a pile that are going to be the death of him. 

[panthers55]

21 minutes ago, electro's horse said:

Obviously the onus to change his play in the open field has to fall on Cam, and no one is suggesting otherwise. The goal line hit in Atlanta was ridiculous. 

that said, he's not calling run between the tackles on like 2nd and 8, right into the teeth of the difference. 

It's not just the kill shots; it's the repetitive poundings at the bottom of a pile that are going to be the death of him. 

And exactly how many times is he going to be running a quarterback power run over the tackles as a designed run unless it is third and 1 or 2.  And how many quarterbacks do a sneak in that case including Brady and Rodgers and other guys.  If Cam is running a power run it is always his call because of the defensive alignment of the line.  What I have seen is that teams that run a wide nine and try to pressure from the outside give up a big gap between the guards and tackle and I have seen Cam run that play but It seems to be his audible not a designed run given that until he comes up to the line he doesnt know how the defense is aligning.

It seems to me the head shots he gets often when he is trying to pass or run that are causing the primary damage.

[PrimeTimeHeel]

Can someone explain to me why is a running play called against a stacked box?

Is it not common sense to pass against stacked boxes and run on weak boxes?

Is it not common sense to try to give your offense the advantage?

 

[electro's horse]

1 hour ago, panthers55 said:

And exactly how many times is he going to be running a quarterback power run over the tackles as a designed run unless it is third and 1 or 2.  And how many quarterbacks do a sneak in that case including Brady and Rodgers and other guys.  If Cam is running a power run it is always his call because of the defensive alignment of the line.  What I have seen is that teams that run a wide nine and try to pressure from the outside give up a big gap between the guards and tackle and I have seen Cam run that play but It seems to be his audible not a designed run given that until he comes up to the line he doesnt know how the defense is aligning.

It seems to me the head shots he gets often when he is trying to pass or run that are causing the primary damage.

I'm not going to go injury by injury with Cam and say where he got them, but I will say that CTE is going to most likely end up being more common in lineman, and that sub concussive hits are going to be more damaging then the giant kill shots that stand out to people. There isn't enough data yet (for lots of reasons) but that's the way it's likely shaping up. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2014/10/17/offensive-linemen-are-the-football-players-most-likely-to-play-while-concussed-new-studies-show/

In other words, getting concussed on a regular basis — and playing through it — is the norm for offensive lineman. The study concludes that, along with educating athletes, coaches and sports-medicine professionals about the unique dangers of the offensive lineman position, “ultimately rule changes to reduce the frequency of these types of impacts” may need to be made.

And another bit more relevant to Cam.

Notably, every position reported undiagnosed concussions, even quarterbacks, although players of that position also reported comparatively less than most other positions, likely because quarterbacks who suffer concussions do so more often from less frequent but higher-impact hits, so their symptoms may be more obvious.

 

[Khyber53]

9 minutes ago, PrimeTimeHeel said:

Can someone explain to me why is a running play called against a stacked box?

Is it not common sense to pass against stacked boxes and run on weak boxes?

Is it not common sense to try to give your offense the advantage?

 

Because coverages are often disguised, particularly against us, to try and push the read option decisions by the QB.  Stacking the box against the run often slips back into a zone coverage scheme at the snap and a line up that looks weak in the box can be a running trap. Until the snap, nothing is set in stone.

The question is really, "Are the appropriate players making the right reads and audibling correctly?" When Cam kills the called play and changes it at the line, what is our success rate for runs and passes? Is he (and DA) making the right calls?

Also, someone on that line should be calling protections. Traditionally, it's the center's job to do so and considering Kalil's football IQ, experience and leadership he should be getting the job. On some teams, particularly those driven by a mobile QB, the QB calls the protections. Not sure which we have going here -- I just know it's not working well.

 

[raleigh-panther]

Shula will never be fired until Rivera is gone unless Newton opens his mouth 

 

[electro's horse]

Then in the actual abstract of the study WaPo cited

These findings suggest that offensive linemen, a position group that experiences frequent but low-magnitude head impacts, develop more post-impact symptoms than other playing positions, but do not report these symptoms as a concussion.

Obviously due to playing style and play call Cam falls more into the lineman category than say QB.

[raleigh-panther]

1 minute ago, Khyber53 said:

Because coverages are often disguised, particularly against us, to try and push the read option decisions by the QB.  Stacking the box against the run often slips back into a zone coverage scheme at the snap and a line up that looks weak in the box can be a running trap. Until the snap, nothing is set in stone.

The question is really, "Are the appropriate players making the right reads and audibling correctly?" When Cam kills the called play and changes it at the line, what is our success rate for runs and passes? Is he (and DA) making the right calls?

Also, someone on that line should be calling protections. Traditionally, it's the center's job to do so and considering Kalil's football IQ, experience and leadership he should be getting the job. On some teams, particularly those driven by a mobile QB, the QB calls the protections. Not sure which we have going here -- I just know it's not working well.

 

You do know this was the same logic used to throw on first and 1 at the goal line 

it made zero sense to run the ball three times against a stacked line deep in their own territory with the time remaining. Zero

just as it made zero sense to throw to the strong side on first and one to the goal line. You do not throw on first and 1.  They had many options for varied running plays and they chose a pass and for that alone Shula should be gone   They do not make smart play calls based on the situation 

Shula has zero instincts for situational football or adjustments. We have seen it over and over and over again

time and again Newton has made chicken salad out of chicken poo and the days of Shula relying on that is coming to an end. Are the Panthers prepared for this. Absolutely not  

there is a reason that after being 15 and 1 no one hired Shula and it's understanding that Cam Newton doesn't come with him