More from Panthers.com: Vernon Butler

[frash.exe]

reading top dawg’s post, it has become apparent that he has really specific definitions for what is considered a luxury pick and what is not (and conveniently, all the guys he highlighted are not luxury picks and would fill a pressing need but everybody gettleman picked in the first round from 2015-2017 do not add much to the team and are clearly luxury picks)

[Toomers]

1 minute ago, frash.exe said:

reading top dawg’s post, it has become apparent that he has really specific definitions for what is considered a luxury pick and what is not (and conveniently, all the guys he highlighted are not luxury picks and would fill a pressing need but everybody gettleman picked in the first round from 2015-2017 do not add much to the team and are clearly luxury picks)

 Well. To save time and space......THIS. Guess I should have led with this.kept chasing goalposts. 

[juliosantos]

21 hours ago, frash.exe said:

what if butler has a break out year in 2018? which draft pick will be highlighted as a bust so ppl can keep shitting on gettleman’s drafting?

gettleman was a good drafter . it was his lack of ability to resign players and adress needs which made him suck . he was also too cheap in free agency . he would rather get all bums and spend money like that compared to getting less players and paying for someone that would help this team.

[Davidson Deac II]

10 hours ago, top dawg said:

You're just throwing names out there without really looking at the specifics of each draft and the situations that were at hand.  I'm fairly certain that with each of the names that you mentioned, we didn't really have the need for said players,  or just had obviously greater needs.  I mean,  I'm not even sure Harrison was drafted, Sherman wasn't projected anywhere near the first round, and Rodgers was a QB that we didn't need at the time. Moreover,  the draft is largely a crap shoot,  but the first round shouldn't be, and normally isn't for any decent GM. As well,  you'd think that most GMs would take the opportunity to fill positions of need with highly touted players (such as Collins,  Lattimore,  or at least Hunter Henry) as opposed to picking players at positions of strength year after year.  Sounds reasonable to me,  especially when the GM has a long background in scouting. 

Rodgers would have been an upgrade over Delhomme, even more than Lattimore would have been an upgrade over our current corners.  You can't criticize the front office for not seeing the need to upgrade at cornerback, but then ignore that the previous (and now current) regime had a chance to upgrade at the most important position on the field, but didn't.  

 

Hindsight is 20/20, and its easy to nitpick whether this pick or that one might have been better.  I am sure if the front office had a time machine, and could see which picks were going to work out, and which were not, they would do a lot better.  But they don't, so we just have to hope that the majority of players they pick are solid contributors.  Or at least that they do better than the other teams.  

[frash.exe]

11 minutes ago, juliosantos said:

gettleman was a good drafter . it was his lack of ability to resign players and adress needs which made him suck . he was also too cheap in free agency . he would rather get all bums and spend money like that compared to getting less players and paying for someone that would help this team.

we re-signed or extended plenty of talent over the past few years

cam newton

greg olsen

trai turner

luke kuechly

kawann short

kurt coleman

mario addison

michael oher

more players are doing well here than ever before. we literally cannot afford to keep them all. that’s the point of the salary cap. it’s here to promote parity between teams in the league. it CAPS your ability to retain good players if you are a good team. we didn’t have much of an issue retaining players before gettleman bc hurney wasn’t bringing in enough FAs or draft picks that could develop well enough to want to test the market when they hit FA. it’s harder to keep 12 really good players than it is to keep 5.

and if you thought gettleman was cheap in FA, you probably don’t remember hurney’s first run where in 2012 for example his best free agent was mike tolbert or in 2008 when he brought in guys like tyler brayton and dj hackett. or the year we were starting blue chip FA acquisition and 2002 nfl europe defensive mvp deke cooper at safety.

[LinvilleGorge]

31 minutes ago, juliosantos said:

gettleman was a good drafter . it was his lack of ability to resign players and adress needs which made him suck . he was also too cheap in free agency . he would rather get all bums and spend money like that compared to getting less players and paying for someone that would help this team.

I think Gettleman was a solid drafter. He didn't swing and whiff very often which is important, but he didn't draft many big time stars (as of yet) either.

My biggest issue with Gettleman is that too often he ignored glaring needs due to his philosophy of building teams from the the trenches out. He did a great job of finding us OL talent and fixed our issues at DT, but he drafted too many projects who fit the athletic traits he was looking for at WR and he just utterly ignored the safety positions and then tried to constantly fill those gaps with players off the trash heap and that really came home to roost last year. When you have a bunch of young CBs backed by over the hill safeties with no range, you're asking for trouble and we were and we got it.

[top dawg]

1 hour ago, Davidson Deac II said:

Rodgers would have been an upgrade over Delhomme, even more than Lattimore would have been an upgrade over our current corners.  You can't criticize the front office for not seeing the need to upgrade at cornerback, but then ignore that the previous (and now current) regime had a chance to upgrade at the most important position on the field, but didn't.  

 

Hindsight is 20/20, and its easy to nitpick whether this pick or that one might have been better.  I am sure if the front office had a time machine, and could see which picks were going to work out, and which were not, they would do a lot better.  But they don't, so we just have to hope that the majority of players they pick are solid contributors.  Or at least that they do better than the other teams.  

Dude,  what in the world?  No one was looking to upgrade Delhomme at that time.  We drafted TD that year,  as well as we should have.  QB was NOT a priority.  No one was calling for us to draft Rodgers.  You are really working hard to compare apples to oranges.  Furthermore,  you're ignoring the most important part which is the situation where value and talent and the BPA basically collide with need.  That is EXACTLY what you want during the draft.  

I get your general point,  and it is true on some level,  but it's not when need meets talent (but is mind-numbingly overlooked because of some stubborn---some might say,  outdated---notions based in dogmatic philosophies/theories about team building). 

And,  for the record,  I wouldn't have picked Hurney at the time,  or fired Gettleman. But I'm glad Gettleman is gone, and though I'm not holding my breath,  I sincerely hope that Hurney is better than before. 

[Mr. Scot]

2 minutes ago, top dawg said:

Dude,  what in the world?  No one was looking to upgrade Delhomme at that time.

A pretty significant portion of this board was looking to "upgrade from Delhomme" on an annual basis, and I'm pretty sure you were in that crowd.

[top dawg]

11 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

A pretty significant portion of this board was looking to "upgrade from Delhomme" on an annual basis, and I'm pretty sure you were in that crowd.

I was,  but I certainly didn't think it would happen, and I knew that the FO was not even thinking in that direction,  so I didn't waste my time on A-Rod or any other QB until Delhomme stunk up the field years later against the Cards (and Hurney inexplicably extended him). I'm pretty sure plenty of people wanted to replace Cam over the years, but everyone knows it wasn't (and is not) going to happen anytime soon.  Thus,  it's really a waste of time discussing it with any seriousness. 

[LinvilleGorge]

1 hour ago, Davidson Deac II said:

Rodgers would have been an upgrade over Delhomme, even more than Lattimore would have been an upgrade over our current corners.  You can't criticize the front office for not seeing the need to upgrade at cornerback, but then ignore that the previous (and now current) regime had a chance to upgrade at the most important position on the field, but didn't.  

 

Hindsight is 20/20, and its easy to nitpick whether this pick or that one might have been better.  I am sure if the front office had a time machine, and could see which picks were going to work out, and which were not, they would do a lot better.  But they don't, so we just have to hope that the majority of players they pick are solid contributors.  Or at least that they do better than the other teams.  

Yep, hindsight is always 20/20. A big part of the reason Rodgers fell to the late 1st is that Cal had produced nothing but bust after bust at QB under Jeff Tedford prior to Rodgers. Most of the NFL were likely afraid of drafting yet another Tedford system QB who wouldn't be able to translate to the NFL. Hell, who knows... if Rodgers hadn't been forced to sit and learn behind Favre for a couple of years maybe he would've been.

[Davidson Deac II]

17 minutes ago, top dawg said:

Dude,  what in the world?  No one was looking to upgrade Delhomme at that time.  We drafted TD that year,  as well as we should have.  QB was NOT a priority.  No one was calling for us to draft Rodgers.  You are really working hard to compare apples to oranges.  Furthermore,  you're ignoring the most important part which is the situation where value and talent and the BPA basically collide with need.  That is EXACTLY what you want during the draft.  

I get your general point,  and it is true on some level,  but it's not when need meets talent (but is mind-numbingly overlooked because of some stubborn---some might say,  outdated---notions based in dogmatic philosophies/theories about team building). 

And,  for the record,  I wouldn't have picked Hurney at the time,  or fired Gettleman. But I'm glad Gettleman is gone, and though I'm not holding my breath,  I hope that Hurney is better than before. 

A lot of people wanted to upgrade over Delhomme.  Not the front office, but then there is no indication the front office wants to upgrade the cornerbacks at this point.  

[top dawg]

3 minutes ago, Davidson Deac II said:

A lot of people wanted to upgrade over Delhomme.  Not the front office, but then there is no indication the front office wants to upgrade the cornerbacks at this point.  

Of course Gettleman wasn't going to draft Lattimore. That would have been an admission that he screwed up the cornerback situation even more than he did. Our DB situation was terrible in 2016, and it wasn't  a bed of roses last season. 

[LinvilleGorge]

1 minute ago, top dawg said:

Of course Gettleman wasn't going to draft Lattimore. That would have been an admission that he screwed up the cornerback situation even more than he did. Our DB situation was terrible in 2016, and it wasn't  a bed of roses last season. 

Igo claims that from a talent perspective we had Lattimore ranked above CMC but medical concerns knocked him down the board. No clue if it's accurate or not but

[Mr. Scot]

1 minute ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Igo claims that from a talent perspective we had Lattimore ranked above CMC but medical concerns knocked him down the board. No clue if it's accurate or not but

Lattimore did indeed miss some games, including the first two against us.