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Mr. Scot

By Mr. Scot,
in Carolina Panthers

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1of10Charnatives Mentor

1of10Charnatives

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, PanthersBigD said:

I don't believe the Nick Saban comparison is appropriate in this case. Nick Saban and Dabo Swinney are working with stacks of 5-star talent, recruited on the strength of their schools. Their bench is 3 and 4 deep at many positions.  Both are known to bully their players by holding their scholarships and playing time over their heads. This does not translate to the NFL, where many players make more than the coaches. 

Rhule got the most out of a less talented pool of players by finding guys with specific strengths and coaching them up and putting them in position to excel. Talent evaluation and the ability to coach up players will always translate to the next level.

Saying Saban and Sweeney’s recruiting success is on the strength of their schools is a half truth at best and not consistent with the available evidence. USC and Michigan to name two are schools with every bit the history and long term prestige of Alabama and Clemson, yet neither are presently dominant in the way Saban and Sweeney are. The reality is that while their program’s cachet gives them entree and credibility, when these gentlemen show up in your living room, you are almost certain to choose their program over any of the others that have long standing tradition and top notch facilities. The difference is them and not just their schools.

Your point about coaching methods of bullying and scholarship extortion not transferring simply bolsters my premise, not undermine it. Saban did not succeed in the NFL because the things that make him successful at college do not translate. I’m just not sure how you arrive at the notion Saban is not an appropriate example. He’s the perfect example because he illustrates the point. Other than you not wanting to agree with it, what’s inappropriate about it?

With regard to Rhule, I did not know much about him before we hired him, but was generally skeptical of hiring college coaches for the reasons above. I have had it explained to me that as you stated his forte lies not in recruiting but in player development and identifying untapped potential. This makes me optimistic that perhaps his skill set is more transferable than many college coaches, so I guess we’ll see.

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raz Newbie

raz

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, 1of10Charnatives said:

Saying Saban and Sweeney’s recruiting success is on the strength of their schools is a half truth at best and not consistent with the available evidence. USC and Michigan to name two are schools with every bit the history and long term prestige of Alabama and Clemson, yet neither are presently dominant in the way Saban and Sweeney are. The reality is that while their program’s cachet gives them entree and credibility, when these gentlemen show up in your living room, you are almost certain to choose their program over any of the others that have long standing tradition and top notch facilities. The difference is them and not just their schools.

Your point about coaching methods of bullying and scholarship extortion not transferring simply bolsters my premise, not undermine it. Saban did not succeed in the NFL because the things that make him successful at college do not translate. I’m just not sure how you arrive at the notion Saban is not an appropriate example. He’s the perfect example because he illustrates the point. Other than you not wanting to agree with it, what’s inappropriate about it?

With regard to Rhule, I did not know much about him before we hired him, but was generally skeptical of hiring college coaches for the reasons above. I have had it explained to me that as you stated his forte lies not in recruiting but in player development and identifying untapped potential. This makes me optimistic that perhaps his skill set is more transferable than many college coaches, so I guess we’ll see.

yeah you're forgetting he's a great football coach.   he's a great coach and would have succeeded with brees.   would have to have had a come to jesus moment about locker room spies at some point but coaching translates.   saban can coach.   him and bellicheck are besties.   he's on that level.   he's just a control freak and isn't willing to give up enough of it to coach in the nfl.

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1of10Charnatives Mentor

1of10Charnatives

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2 minutes ago, raz said:

yeah you're forgetting he's a great football coach.   he's a great coach and would have succeeded with brees.   would have to have had a come to jesus moment about locker room spies at some point but coaching translates.   saban can coach.   him and bellicheck are besties.   he's on that level.   he's just a control freak and isn't willing to give up enough of it to coach in the nfl.

Okay, but the evidence I have available says he’s a great college coach who could not succeed in the NFL when he had the chance. We can play the shoulda coulda woulda game all day long, but I’m basing my statements on what actually did happen as opposed to what might have happened.

I neither like nor dislike Saban but the available evidence supports the premise I put forth, not the premise that Saban is a great coach at all levels. Asserting that Saban’s control issues are the only thing holding him back doesn’t prove he’s a great coach who could succeed at the NFL level, it’s just an unsupported assertion as to why he has not thus far.

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raz Newbie

raz

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10 hours ago, 1of10Charnatives said:

Okay, but the evidence I have available says he’s a great college coach who could not succeed in the NFL when he had the chance. We can play the shoulda coulda woulda game all day long, but I’m basing my statements on what actually did happen as opposed to what might have happened.

I neither like nor dislike Saban but the available evidence supports the premise I put forth, not the premise that Saban is a great coach at all levels. Asserting that Saban’s control issues are the only thing holding him back doesn’t prove he’s a great coach who could succeed at the NFL level, it’s just an unsupported assertion as to why he has not thus far.

its no different than your unsupported assertion

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1of10Charnatives Mentor

1of10Charnatives

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My assertion is only that he’s succceeded at the college level and failed at the pro level and that this is due to the difference in applicable skill set. The facts of success and failure speak for themselves, the only portion which is up for debate is whether it’s owing to the difference. If you choose not to take the view that the facts support this notion, that’s up to you, but it seems a reasonable notion to me more so than suggesting his failure at the NFL level was owing to the unavailability of a HOF qb.

I’d agree that being a control freak wouldn’t help, while it seems to work for Bellicheck, it’s been a decided drawback for Coughlin, yet between them the two men have managed 8 Super Bowl rings. At the end of the day regardless of conjecture as to why, the facts suggest Saban is a great college coach, but not a great pro coach.

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Mr. Scot Grand Master

Mr. Scot

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While I've been looking at news, here's a random name that came up.

Kevin Mawae is currently working as an offensive analyst at Arizona State.  He's an LSU alumnus and came to address the team back a little before the national championship game.

Wonder if he's make a good Assistant OL Coach.

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Mr. Scot Grand Master

Mr. Scot

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19 minutes ago, TheSpecialJuan said:

Panthers interested in Jason Simmons

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/01/24/panthers-interested-in-jason-simmons/

That would make sense. The only secondary coach we've got right now isn't that experienced. He could be the "Defensive Passing Game Coordinator" counterpart to Al Holcomb.

We sure are looking at Packers coaches lately. Although he was technically a Browns coach last year, I'm hoping that works out to us getting James Campen too.

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GRWatcher Mentor

GRWatcher

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7 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

That would make sense. The only secondary coach we've got right now isn't that experienced. He could be the "Defensive Passing Game Coordinator" counterpart to Al Holcomb.

We sure are looking at Packers coaches lately. Although he was technically a Browns coach last year, I'm hoping that works out to us getting James Campen too.

Or maybe the Safety Coach? The secondary coach we have coached CB's at Baylor.

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Mr. Scot Grand Master

Mr. Scot

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5 minutes ago, GRWatcher said:

Or maybe the Safety Coach? The secondary coach we have coached CB's at Baylor.

Possible, though I thought the other guy they just picked up (Cedric Whitaker) might be slotted for that job. Simmons has a lot more pro experience than either of them.

Either way, it sounds like the defensive staff if gonna be structured as four levels: Coordinator - Run / Pass Sub Coordinators - Position Coaches - Assistant Position Coaches

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