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How dangerous is Willis as a runner? What makes him special?

micnificent28

By micnificent28,
in Carolina Panthers

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Mr. Scot Grand Master

Mr. Scot

Posted
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

10-6 and got them in the playoffs in his first full season.  Keep in mind he was out of the league from his dog fighting crimes for a couple years.  Imagine Vick with Reid throughout his career.  Now you are switching it up though.  You said he couldn't pass so I showed you how he could with the right coach, then you bring it to winning (10-6 isn't terrible), but I assume you mean playoffs wins?  So no he didn't get a playoff win immediately with Reid after being out of the league for several years.  I'm not sure how that proves he couldn't pass the ball?

Let me put it this way: Would you want to go into a season with Kevin Kolb, AJ Feeley or Koy Detmer as your quarterback?

Every one of those guys produced good stats and even won games in an Andy Reid system.

Is that evidence that they were good quarterbacks?

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mrcompletely11 Grand Master

mrcompletely11

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Posted
4 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Two things...

Yes, lots of quarterbacks are capable of occasionally running for a first down if something opens up. Considering them "dual threat" quarterbacks or even mobile quarterbacks strictly based on that criteria is a huge stretch. By that definition, you could put Jake Delhomme in one of those categories.

Second, and probably more important, you're arguing against a viewpoint that doesn't exist (at least not with me, but I can only speak for myself).

It's not that you have to be a pocket passer to win. It's that you have to be a capable passer to win, regardless of what you can or can't do as a runner.

The notion that you have to be able to run just isn't true, never has been. If you're capable of running, great. That adds value to your quarterback skill set.

But it's the best that you can do is run for an occasional first down when something breaks open, that's okay too.

Also to be clear, very little of what I've been talking about is any direct discussion of Malik Willis. I'm not a big Willis fan, but for most of the topic here I've been talking about general concepts more so than Willis himself.

But focusing on him directly, this is how I'd summarize it.

If he can develop into a solid passer, then yes he will succeed in the NFL.

If he can't, it doesn't matter if he's more athletic than Vick, Newton and Jackson combined. He's going to wash out as a quarterback.

There is really nothing more to be said about willis at this point past this post.  Everyone and their brother acknowledge he needs a ton of work on the passing side, mechanics, reading defenses etc.  And everyone acknowledges he is going to need a redshirt year (or 2).  So that alone crosses him off of our board.

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ForJimmy Grand Master

ForJimmy

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Posted
9 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Let me put it this way: Would you want to go into a season with Kevin Kolb, AJ Feeley or Koy Detmer as your quarterback?

Every one of those guys produced good stats and even won games in an Andy Reid system.

Is that evidence that they were good quarterbacks?

So I can go to the Super Bowl winners (you know the ones that aren't "running qbs") and ask you a similar question.  Would you rather have Nick Foles, Joe Flaco, or 38 year old Manning as your QB?  If you are just using playoff wins these guys won it all.  I'll raise you a Trent Dilfer and a Brad Johnson.  My point is TEAMS win in the playoffs.  Joe Burrow's defense shut down Mahomes for half a game, but guess who gets the credit for that win?  Stafford throws 2 INTs in the Super Bowl, but guess who gets the win?   Manning was under 60% completion with 9 TDs and 17 INTs with 2200 passing yards but he beat MVP Cam in the big game...  I believe Manning's rating was 8.6 for the Super Bowl.

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Mr. Scot Grand Master

Mr. Scot

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Posted
1 minute ago, ForJimmy said:

So I can go to the Super Bowl winners (you know the ones that aren't "running qbs") and ask you a similar question.  Would you rather have Nick Foles, Joe Flaco, or 38 year old Manning as your QB?  If you are just using playoff wins these guys won it all.  I'll raise you a Trent Dilfer and a Brad Johnson.  My point is TEAMS win in the playoffs.  Joe Burrow's defense shut down Mahomes for half a game, but guess who gets the credit for that win?  Stafford throws 2 INTs in the Super Bowl, but guess who gets the win?   Manning was under 60% completion with 9 TDs and 17 INTs with 2200 passing yards but he beat MVP Cam in the big game...  I believe Manning's rating was 8.6 for the Super Bowl.

Where have I ever said that winning and losing aren't team things?

But if that's the route that you want to go, then answer this:

Can we win with Sam Darnold?

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micnificent28 Mentor

micnificent28

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18 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

There is really nothing more to be said about willis at this point past this post.  Everyone and their brother acknowledge he needs a ton of work on the passing side, mechanics, reading defenses etc.  And everyone acknowledges he is going to need a redshirt year (or 2).  So that alone crosses him off of our board.

Not everyone

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DaveThePanther2008 Grand Master

DaveThePanther2008

Posted
Posted
18 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

There is really nothing more to be said about willis at this point past this post.  Everyone and their brother acknowledge he needs a ton of work on the passing side, mechanics, reading defenses etc.  And everyone acknowledges he is going to need a redshirt year (or 2).  So that alone crosses him off of our board.

I agree.  This alone should remove him from our board.  If we are going to draft a QB it is going to be someone who can beat out Darnold.  Willis isn't it. 

If I am going to gamble on a QB with #6 I'd rather have Pickett or Howell. 

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micnificent28 Mentor

micnificent28

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20 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

There is really nothing more to be said about willis at this point past this post.  Everyone and their brother acknowledge he needs a ton of work on the passing side, mechanics, reading defenses etc.  And everyone acknowledges he is going to need a redshirt year (or 2).  So that alone crosses him off of our board.

Matter of fact PFF just mocked him to us a hour or so ago

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micnificent28 Mentor

micnificent28

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Just now, DaveThePanther2008 said:

I agree.  This alone should remove him from our board.  If we are going to draft a QB it is going to be someone who can beat out Darnold.  Willis isn't it. 

If I am going to gamble on a QB with #6 I'd rather have Pickett or Howell. 

You would be wrong for spending the number 6 pick on a limited upside Pickett and Howell who is projected second rounder. I like Howell but nobody has him going in the top 20 maybe not the first round. 

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micnificent28 Mentor

micnificent28

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10 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

So I can go to the Super Bowl winners (you know the ones that aren't "running qbs") and ask you a similar question.  Would you rather have Nick Foles, Joe Flaco, or 38 year old Manning as your QB?  If you are just using playoff wins these guys won it all.  I'll raise you a Trent Dilfer and a Brad Johnson.  My point is TEAMS win in the playoffs.  Joe Burrow's defense shut down Mahomes for half a game, but guess who gets the credit for that win?  Stafford throws 2 INTs in the Super Bowl, but guess who gets the win?   Manning was under 60% completion with 9 TDs and 17 INTs with 2200 passing yards but he beat MVP Cam in the big game...  I believe Manning's rating was 8.6 for the Super Bowl.

This should kill that whole argument. The whole idea that the quarterback wins and decides playoff victories is ridiculous. There are 21 other guys who have a large say so and looking at the score at the end of the game doesn't mean the better qb won the game.

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