Ahead of first draft together, Dan Morgan and Dave Canales spent time on basics

[Pejorative Miscreant]

9 hours ago, rayzor said:

You choose the best by the standards and criteria you set based on things you deem important.

There is no set ranking that everyone goes by. I think this where a lot of people get messed up thinking that everyone buses or has the same ranking of players or ranking system.

This is well stated. I've often wondered and thought maybe there was a weighted composite formula that is scored that makes the grading quantifiable.  It could also include intangible factors such as "dog" and "need".  This is all conjecture and I'm dumb and blind as poo regarding what's in the secret sauce but that would be at least one way to approach it.

[rayzor]

1 hour ago, strato said:

Aimless for over a decade disregards 2015. 

And this other thing, with the scouts being

"like they weren't even in the room. They'd get excited about a pick coming up and who they thought would be a good fit and Hurney would just go another direction and then they would be questioning why they even bothered. Hurney did what Hurney was going to do without any input from anyone else."

Is this documented or is it your interpretation of events?

It's been a few years, but that was what i was hearing from people inside. Just a frustration from the scouting department. to be fair, it was only a couple instances that i heard it mentioned but the way i heard it or the way i interpreted it anyways was that this was a recurring issue. 

i can't remember if it was ever reported, though.

[mrcompletely11]

10 minutes ago, rayzor said:

It's been a few years, but that was what i was hearing from people inside. Just a frustration from the scouting department. to be fair, it was only a couple instances that i heard it mentioned but the way i heard it or the way i interpreted it anyways was that this was a recurring issue. 

i can't remember if it was ever reported, though.

more recently there was a clip of when they traded up for Coral they went around the room asking which qb it should be.  I mean for fugs sake shouldnt they have a draft board or at the very least already have discussed this sort of thing instead of doing it in real time.  IIRC it was mcadoo that pushed for MC.  Like why the hell are you even employing scouts if you are just casually having a conversation about the pick right before you make the trade/selection? 

 

Maybe I am an idiot but dont most teams have you know a draft board that they go by and when its their time to choose they simply look at where they are on the board and to a degree see what their teams needs are and then make the choice?  Doing it the way we have done it makes you end up with picks like MC, Johnson and Mingo.  Just scattershot all around

[rayzor]

2 minutes ago, Pejorative Miscreant said:

This is well stated. I've often wondered and thought maybe there was a weighted composite formula that is scored that makes the grading quantifiable.  It could also include intangible factors such as "dog" and "need".  This is all conjecture and I'm dumb and blind as poo regarding what's in the secret sauce but that would be at least one way to approach it.

yeah, there's so many things to consider in it....scheme fit, personality fit, square hole fit...so many things to consider. it comes down to what each team values or just is looking for and they all aren't specifically looking for the same thing.

just look at the current crop of WRs...who is the top 5 in the game right now and rank them. I would be shocked if there was anything close to a total consensus. the whole thing is completely subjective and each team decides for themselves how they rank.

now they will try and get an idea on how much other teams like certain players, but the rankings that we all see are done by NFL outsiders who might have some connections within certain franchises, but all of those should be taken with a grain of salt. 

no team is going to base their board off walter football or mel kiper rankings or anything like that. we use them and think we're experts, but teams have their own and they go by their own boards.

BPA is always based on the individual team's rankings made up specifically for their team which will likely be skewed by what they are looking for.

[CanadianCat]

I listened to the presser and a few things stood out..

1. A lot of 'why weren't we doing this before' moments. But glad to see that they are. Actually Dan  Morgan sitting behind Fitt and seeing what went wrong may actually be a good thing. 

2. Canales talking about how he has never been in a pass rush meeting before but is now the HC at 1st rings some alarm bells but at the same time as a HC you dont need to be master of everything. Im a Project Manager IRL and you rely on your subject matter experts to handle their responsibilities and I like that he is eager to learn but trusts his staff. 

3. Getting the coaching staff and the scouts on the same page makes all the sense in the world. 

 

Canales seems so young and his giddy personality seems to reinforce that but I need to remind myself his a Pete Carrol descendant and if he can grow into that we have a helluva coach on our hands. 

[rayzor]

10 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

more recently there was a clip of when they traded up for Coral they went around the room asking which qb it should be.  I mean for fugs sake shouldnt they have a draft board or at the very least already have discussed this sort of thing instead of doing it in real time.  IIRC it was mcadoo that pushed for MC.  Like why the hell are you even employing scouts if you are just casually having a conversation about the pick right before you make the trade/selection? 

 

Maybe I am an idiot but dont most teams have you know a draft board that they go by and when its their time to choose they simply look at where they are on the board and to a degree see what their teams needs are and then make the choice?  Doing it the way we have done it makes you end up with picks like MC, Johnson and Mingo.  Just scattershot all around

i think they all have them. i even saw one for rhule at one point. they had it on some video that got released, but i think there was a lot of second guessing when it came time to make picks. 

but i'm guessing that probably happens a lot when the draft goes differently than what you think it would. it would have to. you see one position falling that you had placed a bit of importance on and to make sure that you get that addressed you jump the gun so you don't miss out. you have to watch the waves within the draft and either ride them or work your way around them to make the right calls. 

i think you can make it work if you make yourself a slave to your draft board's ranking, but i think you can also lose out on some good players that could help if you do that.

[CRA]

6 minutes ago, rayzor said:

i think they all have them. i even saw one for rhule at one point. they had it on some video that got released, but i think there was a lot of second guessing when it came time to make picks. 

but i'm guessing that probably happens a lot when the draft goes differently than what you think it would. it would have to. you see one position falling that you had placed a bit of importance on and to make sure that you get that addressed you jump the gun so you don't miss out. you have to watch the waves within the draft and either ride them or work your way around them to make the right calls. 

i think you can make it work if you make yourself a slave to your draft board's ranking, but i think you can also lose out on some good players that could help if you do that.

as soon as a pick gets made, the PR narrative is always the same.  We all agreed and got exactly who we all wanted.  It went perfect.  

In reality, there should be disagreement in house on how virtually every pick is used.  Your OC with a glaring hole at WR....shouldn't be like yeah, we should totally draft that DB Evero wants despite a WR they like being essentially right there in the same area on their board. 

Everyone tows a company line in the end.  That's just work.  NFL or the real world.  I still think as reported, there was a split on the QB last year.  Then a decision got made and everyone sings the same song.  Because that's just what you have to do. 

[rayzor]

39 minutes ago, CanadianCat said:

I listened to the presser and a few things stood out..

1. A lot of 'why weren't we doing this before' moments. But glad to see that they are. Actually Dan  Morgan sitting behind Fitt and seeing what went wrong may actually be a good thing. 

2. Canales talking about how he has never been in a pass rush meeting before but is now the HC at 1st rings some alarm bells but at the same time as a HC you dont need to be master of everything. Im a Project Manager IRL and you rely on your subject matter experts to handle their responsibilities and I like that he is eager to learn but trusts his staff. 

3. Getting the coaching staff and the scouts on the same page makes all the sense in the world. 

 

Canales seems so young and his giddy personality seems to reinforce that but I need to remind myself his a Pete Carrol descendant and if he can grow into that we have a helluva coach on our hands. 

100% agreed with all of that, esp. #1. initially it pisses me off that these things are new concepts here, but i'm just glad we're doing them. 

One thing that i remember from last year was that Reich was trying to figure out some things to be more trendy. like having to have the 100 thing  explained to him. it was funny but one of those moments where you say "at least he's trying" but then you realize he looks like a dork just like i would if i tried to be trendy in public (which i only do to embarrass my daughters). 

but we really saw no energy from reich. he was like this contemplative introspective guy who seemed to be full of wisdom (or full of something) that i wanted to like...i wanted to like. but he just kept saying things...kept saying things over and over. worse the way he spoke was contagious. it was just contagious. moving on.

moving on.

Canales has an attitude that is contagious as well, only his attitude will bring some needed positive confident energy to the team. 

[CanadianCat]

9 minutes ago, rayzor said:

100% agreed with all of that, esp. #1. initially it pisses me off that these things are new concepts here, but i'm just glad we're doing them. 

One thing that i remember from last year was that Reich was trying to figure out some things to be more trendy. like having to have the 100 thing  explained to him. it was funny but one of those moments where you say "at least he's trying" but then you realize he looks like a dork just like i would if i tried to be trendy in public (which i only do to embarrass my daughters). 

but we really saw no energy from reich. he was like this contemplative introspective guy who seemed to be full of wisdom (or full of something) that i wanted to like...i wanted to like. but he just kept saying things...kept saying things over and over. worse the way he spoke was contagious. it was just contagious. moving on.

moving on.

Canales has an attitude that is contagious as well, only his attitude will bring some energy to the team. 

Yup. 

Reich was a bad coach for us, but I dont think hes bad coach in general. I think he got burnt out in Indy and never really recovered. Then I think he tried to over compensate for that and made a bunch of bad hires. I think your right that he tried to be trendy especially with the coaches he hired. 

[CRA]

3 minutes ago, CanadianCat said:

Yup. 

Reich was a bad coach for us, but I dont think hes bad coach in general. I think he got burnt out in Indy and never really recovered. Then I think he tried to over compensate for that and made a bunch of bad hires. I think your right that he tried to be trendy especially with the coaches he hired. 

Hasn't it basically been confirmed that Tepper dictated that Frank couldn't just hire and build the staff as he wanted? 

[CanadianCat]

1 minute ago, CRA said:

Hasn't it basically been confirmed that Tepper dictated that Frank couldn't just hire and build the staff as he wanted? 

This was debated in another recent thread but I think that was over stated. I dont think he was NOT allowed to hire people he wanted, more that he was encouraged to look around the league and hire the best.. even if he didnt have a relationship with them. I think thats why there was never cohesion on the players or the system. 

[rayzor]

31 minutes ago, CRA said:

as soon as a pick gets made, the PR narrative is always the same.  We all agreed and got exactly who we all wanted.  It went perfect.  

In reality, there should be disagreement in house on how virtually every pick is used.  Your OC with a glaring hole at WR....shouldn't be like yeah, we should totally draft that DB Evero wants despite a WR they like being essentially right there in the same area on their board. 

Everyone tows a company line in the end.  That's just work.  NFL or the real world.  I still think as reported, there was a split on the QB last year.  Then a decision got made and everyone sings the same song.  Because that's just what you have to do. 

yep. that's the curse of management. we may not agree with things, but we don't get paid to agree with everything. we get paid to make things work in whatever situation we find ourselves in. how we feel about the situation doesn't matter. you just have to make it work somehow and making it work a lot of times depends on you being able to sing a song you'd rather not be singing. 

[mrcompletely11]

1 minute ago, rayzor said:

yep. that's the curse of management. we may not agree with things, but we don't get paid to agree with everything. we get paid to make things work in whatever situation we find ourselves in. how we feel about the situation doesn't matter. you just have to make it work somehow and making it work a lot of times depends on you being able to sing a song you'd rather not be singing. 

I've learned a long time ago that in those types of situations you always keep receipts to cover your ass

[CRA]

Just now, CanadianCat said:

This was debated in another recent thread but I think that was over stated. I dont think he was NOT allowed to hire people he wanted, more that he was encouraged to look around the league and hire the best.. even if he didnt have a relationship with them. I think thats why there was never cohesion on the players or the system. 

I mean, if your billionaire boss upon hiring you....strongly encourages you to do X and Y? I'd say the decision was made for him. 

But I agree there was never any cohesion on the players or system.  That's why I think you look at Tepper.  Because what coach doesn't' want cohesion and his dudes.   

I still think everyone was essentially setup to fail.  Bryce to Frank.  And I'm not a super huge fan of either of them but I still think the biggest blame is at the top.  Fitterer and Tepper.  It was easy to kick Frank and I certainly did it a lot.  But I also thought he looked mentally defeated from the jump and IMO you can sort of see why in hindsight.  

I just think retaining Fitterer was the bad move.   He was just on a unique timeline.  He knew he was the next man out.  Even if it didn't happen that way in real time given how Frank basically gave up IMO.   I think Fitterer really need the all star staff and Bryce moves to save face and alter the narrative.   Much more so than Frank.