So what the heck happened to John Fox anyway?(An honest question)

[PantherFanForLife]

Now that some of the emotions around here have been subdued I think it's time we try to give Fox a little bit objectivity, and at least personally, I want to give him my respect.

Am I the only one that remembers the early years of Fox's career here when he was actually a really likeable coach? I used to love the guy. Most people around here saw him as much of a hero as the best Panther players. But back then he also had a different approach. He used to have the image of a sly Fox that no one could figure out. Unfortunately, over the years he kind of became the predictable guy. He was also happier, more positive and energetic, players loved him, he loved them back and he seemed to love being here.

I don't know exactly when it happened, but I think it was around the same time when he went on the weight loss diet. That's when my dislike for his conservative nature as a coach began. But it wasn't one sided. He changed too. Over the past 3 years or so he became more withdrawn, more vague than usual in his press conferences, always appearing annoyed at valid questions from reporters and the question of team motivation started rearing its ugly head. He had this silent "I know what I'm doing so lets get this over with and leave me alone" attitude.

With the way Rivera talking, it's becoming more and more clear that what Jerry wanted was to have more control over the team and give less to the coach. I'm wondering, do you think that was the biggest problem between the two sides? Is it possible Fox wanted more freedom while Jerry wanted to continue treating him like a coach in training?

I wonder if we will ever know what exactly Fox wanted to do with this team that didn't sit well with Hurney and JR but I really would like to find out. I do believe Fox will be treated more like an experienced coach in Denver and I think he will get to have more freedom to do things his way.

I genuinely wish Fox the best and thank him for what he did for this Club. And I believe Rivera actually has some big shoes to fill so I wish him the best as well and hope he can continue what Fox started here in a positive direction. Oh and finally, how do you feel about what appears to be Jerry and Hurney having more control over this team, and our new coach Rivera, having less?

[CatMan72]

I think JR was pretty honest about his issues with Fox during the press conference.

Bottom line, the Panthers felt like they had spent the money and given Fox everything he asked for and he was still unable to put together back-to-back winning seasons and only made 3 playoff appearances in 9 years. I think the 2009 season and Fox's insistence on sticking with Jake was the final straw as far as JR was concerned. It made JR conclude that Fox was so totally dependent on vets that when something went wrong with a vet Fox had no "plan B".

JR and Hurney have always wanted to follow the "build through the draft" model and I think they felt like Fox was too dependent on vets and too unwilling to develop younger players to make that model work.

[Mother Grabber]

I heard on WFNZ yesterday that he was a lame duck for the last TWO seasons, if you can believe that crap.

[CRA]

the moment his magic charm Jake blew out his elbow in that game in 2007.....that was it. From that moment on he seemed to struggle w/ some real basic decisions....from depth chart issues to game plans to the idenity of his team (and not being true to it when it counted).

[PantherFanForLife]

I think JR was pretty honest about his issues with Fox during the press conference.

Bottom line, the Panthers felt like they had spent the money and given Fox everything he asked for and he was still unable to put together back-to-back winning seasons and only made 3 playoff appearances in 9 years. I think the 2009 season and Fox's insistence on sticking with Jake was the final straw as far as JR was concerned. It made JR conclude that Fox was so totally dependent on vets that when something went wrong with a vet Fox had no "plan B".

JR and Hurney have always wanted to follow the "build through the draft" model and I think they felt like Fox was too dependent on vets and too unwilling to develop younger players to make that model work.

I really don't think we did. Yeah that might be the first excuse JR would go to, but we know BOTH of them have stated they had a different "philosophy". But NEITHER side ever explained what those philosophies were. I hope someone from the Panthers camp reporters eventually sits down with Fox, when he can actually talk about this, and interviews him.

We'll never get the real truth from JR but we may at least get half the story from Fox one day. I really want to hear it too. It was so obvious Fox had his mouth taped over and wanted to say something but out of respect for JR never did.

[PantherFanForLife]

the moment his magic charm Jake blew out his elbow in that game in 2007.....that was it. From that moment on he seemed to struggle w/ some real basic decisions....from depth chart issues to game plans to the idenity of his team (and not being true to it when it counted).

Yeah but come on, JR may have been loyal, but we all know Fox never really relied on Jake, at least until the playoff game which is what pissed me off because he should have known Jake would crumble.

Fox had a system in which Jake shined, and we all knew as well as Fox did, that that system meant "DON'T put the ball game in your QB's hand unless it's a last resort". We were always a run first team, even with Jake, which is why we had the success we did in the first place. Jake was always just a game managing QB.

[CatMan72]

Think about the two model "build through the draft" teams in the NFL, the Packers and the Steelers... other than the QB position these teams plug guys in that they draft right away and let them play.

We were drafting guys and then Fox was asking for FA's like Diggs, Landon Johnson, Tyler Brayton, etc to start infront of them.

[blackcatgrowl]

To be honest, there were two sides to what happened to Fox.

His part in the problem:

He was too stubborn. His reluctance to adapt to changing circumstances, from play calling to keeping bad personnel at starting or 2nd string positions (Jake, Foster, Carter, Jarrett), led to his downfall. He walked into a dream situation, having Peppers, Smith, and Morgan in their prime, and squandered it on tired, old, and beatable strategies, and robot-like philosophy.

He was also a little to casual about the game. He lacked passion. And there was a lack of discipline in our team from the get go. "It is what it is." sums him up completely.

Ownership/Front Office part in the problem:

Apart from the pot luck they had in 2002/2003 with roster moves, and Beason/D.Will/Stewart, we've slowly downgraded, not upgraded with our picks and lack of Free Agency activity. Had Ownership been willing to go after talent that matched Fox's dogged approach to football, we'd have been a little further from .500 than we were at the end of Fox's tenure.

Note: This is still a problem, and is starting to look like it will continue into Rivera's tenure.

[Mr. Scot]

Stubbornness, inability to adapt, too much reliance on veterans, failure to maintain professional distance with some players, overvaluing his own worth...

Those are the killers that I see.

[PantherFanForLife]

Think about the two model "build through the draft" teams in the NFL, other than the QB position these teams plug guys in that they draft almost right and let them play.

We were drafting guys and then Fox was asking for FA's like Diggs, Landon Johnson, Tyler Brayton, etc to start infront of them.

Hmmm...you might be on to something there. Maybe it was Fox's love for relying on vets versus JR's philosophy of building through the draft, staying cheap which goes hand in hand with the CBA issue.

Can't blame Fox on that one too much though. FA was a part of this league, so part of the game, and we had our best year when we made the best FA acquisition. Fox's way did get us to a Superbowl. It remains to be seen whether JR's stay young philosophy ever pays off and brings us consistent winning seasons and another Superbowl run like he wants.

[The Saltman]

Stubbornness, inability to adapt, failure to maintain professional distance with players, overvaluing his own worth...

Those are the killers that I see.

Hmmm...you might be on to something there. Maybe it was Fox's love for relying on vets versus JR's philosophy of building through the draft, staying cheap which goes hand in hand with the CBA issue.

Can't blame Fox on that one too much though. FA was a part of this league, so part of the game, and we had our best year when we made the best FA acquisition.

that was pretty much his downfall.

[Pox 08]

No real idea. I just know my own faith in him waned when he kept saying that Jake gave us the best chance to win.

[CRA]

Yeah but come on, JR may have been loyal, but we all know Fox never really relied on Jake, at least until the playoff game which is what pissed me off because he should have known Jake would crumble.

Fox had a system in which Jake shined, and we all knew as well as Fox did, that that system meant "DON'T put the ball game in your QB's hand unless it's a last resort". We were always a run first team, even with Jake, which is why we had the success we did in the first place. Jake was always just a game managing QB.

the 2003-2007 Jake was the perfect compliment to Fox. I think losing that guy had a big impact on Fox.

I have always disagreed w/ Jake as a "game manager". I never thought he was. He was a a controlled gambler imo. Fox needs that based on his habits.

[Fiz]

Stubbornness, inability to adapt, too much reliance on veterans, failure to maintain professional distance with some players, overvaluing his own worth...

Those are the killers that I see.

This.