Coach asked about Coker!!

[CRA]

8 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Also, this was Bryce Young as a rookie(horrible) versus supposedly the far better version of Bryce Young.

BY at the end of 2024 didn't look like BY at the start of 2023.  There was undeniable improvement few could see coming. 

that said, Carolina in 2024 was still a very bad landing spot for a rookie WR.  We had bad QB play still in 2024.  So when bashing WRs, you still have to factor they have been setup to fail coming into the league by Carolina drafting them. 

I was a LOUD XL advocate.  But even when I was doing that I always put a disclaimer on basically every single post.  I wanted XL under the pretext we would be moving on with Bryce Young.  Leading into that draft it was always obvious XL did not pair up with BY.     I was 100% certain we would move on from BY fairly quickly and we did just that.  No one saw that rise from the dead and IMO that wasn't in the Carolina plans. 

[jtm]

No idea why XL gets so much hate here.  Most WRs don't excel until their 3rd year unless they are a phenom and phenoms don't get drafted at the end of the 1st round.  

[Navy_football]

8 minutes ago, CRA said:

BY at the end of 2024 didn't look like BY at the start of 2023.  There was undeniable improvement few could see coming. 

that said, Carolina in 2024 was still a very bad landing spot for a rookie WR.  We had bad QB play still in 2024.  So when bashing WRs, you still have to factor they have been setup to fail coming into the league by Carolina drafting them. 

I was a LOUD XL advocate.  But even when I was doing that I always put a disclaimer on basically every single post.  I wanted XL under the pretext we would be moving on with Bryce Young.  Leading into that draft it was always obvious XL did not pair up with BY.     I was 100% certain we would move on from BY fairly quickly and we did just that.  No one saw that rise from the dead and IMO that wasn't in the Carolina plans. 

Who would be a better fit for XL? Spencer Rattler? FTR, I agree their skillsets don't really match - so far. Ladd was definitely the best fit for Bryce at that pick. 

[kungfoodude]

9 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

Ladd only had one year of good college production (2022). 

The biggest difference is the McConkey was a consistent producer and XL literally never produced anything his entire career minus his 5th year. He had 32 starts in 53 career games to the 22 starts in 39 games for McConkey. 

It's never going to be a true apples to apples comparison because XL was thought to be a #1 WR and McConkey was always going to be a slot guy. 

The arguments(of which I made myself) largely came down to taking a hail mary on a project/high ceiling #1 WR versus taking an extremely high floor but higher injury risk slot WR. This obviously came with the caveat that we had an effective AT and it was somewhat of a redundant take.

I fell on the side of taking the clear football player over the guy that might one day become a football player.

[kungfoodude]

14 minutes ago, CRA said:

BY at the end of 2024 didn't look like BY at the start of 2023.  There was undeniable improvement few could see coming. 

that said, Carolina in 2024 was still a very bad landing spot for a rookie WR.  We had bad QB play still in 2024.  So when bashing WRs, you still have to factor they have been setup to fail coming into the league by Carolina drafting them. 

I was a LOUD XL advocate.  But even when I was doing that I always put a disclaimer on basically every single post.  I wanted XL under the pretext we would be moving on with Bryce Young.  Leading into that draft it was always obvious XL did not pair up with BY.     I was 100% certain we would move on from BY fairly quickly and we did just that.  No one saw that rise from the dead and IMO that wasn't in the Carolina plans. 

TBH, I don't think a better QB would fix XL. If anything, it would likely expose his flaws further, IMO.

I was heavily anti-XL because he was such an unpolished player and an older one at that. So I think the crux of this is that we fall on different sides of that aisle from the start.

The thing we should be able to agree on is that XL very much needs to improve(and a lot) or his time here is likely going to be far shorter than either of us should want.

[Navy_football]

4 minutes ago, jtm said:

No idea why XL gets so much hate here.  Most WRs don't excel until their 3rd year unless they are a phenom and phenoms don't get drafted at the end of the 1st round.  

You really could be right. XL definitely showed an ability to hand catch contested passes at SC - for one season. May just need time to get comfortable in the NFL - hopefully. 

[jtm]

2 minutes ago, Navy_football said:

You really could be right. XL definitely showed an ability to hand catch contested passes at SC - for one season. May just need time to get comfortable in the NFL - hopefully. 

He was raw out of college and he looked raw last year.  The talent is there and if folks don't see that then they are just looking to hate.  He needs to polish his game to remain a starter and I'm pulling for him because he is so likeable.  

[Navy_football]

2 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

TBH, I don't think a better QB would fix XL. If anything, it would likely expose his flaws further, IMO.

I was heavily anti-XL because he was such an unpolished player and an older one at that. So I think the crux of this is that we fall on different sides of that aisle from the start.

The thing we should be able to agree on is that XL very much needs to improve(and a lot) or his time here is likely going to be far shorter than either of us should want.

I think BY exposes ALL of XL's flaws. Not necessarily a BETTER QB, but a different playing style, and a different offensive scheme/playcalling/role. Maybe a young Cam type QB? Fires the ball in there when you're open. BY throws to a spot you're supposed to be, when you're supposed to be there. I just don't think that's XL's game. 

[kungfoodude]

Just now, jtm said:

He was raw out of college and he looked raw last year.  The talent is there and if folks don't see that then they are just looking to hate.  He needs to polish his game to remain a starter and I'm pulling for him because he is so likeable.  

The issue with this take is that he is still a very raw guy that is going to be 25 at the end of this season. That is literally the timeline where you expect a "raw" college prospect to be fully hitting their stride as an NFL WR.

This was always going to be a problem with XL. It's very much not a good sign when you are a 5 year project player. Typically those are the guys that are in the 5th round to UDFA category.

[kungfoodude]

1 minute ago, Navy_football said:

I think BY exposes ALL of XL's flaws. Not necessarily a BETTER QB, but a different playing style, and a different offensive scheme/playcalling/role. Maybe a young Cam type QB? Fires the ball in there when you're open. BY throws to a spot you're supposed to be, when you're supposed to be there. I just don't think that's XL's game. 

If you can't be where you are supposed to be, when you are supposed to be there, you have a limited timeframe as an NFL WR. 

Almost any decent WR should be able to get open in the scenario of an insane athlete scrambling to allow guys time to work on a DB. 

We need him to get better across the board. He needs to not just be a freak athlete out there running around but become proficient at his craft. Guys like Devante Adams and Justin Jefferson aren't just great athletes, they are insane tacticians and masters of their craft.

If it was all about size/speed, DK Metcalf would be the GOAT.

[Jay Roosevelt]

Trying to shoehorn XL into a starting role when Coker is clearly our best option as WR2 is only going to end badly for XL. The best way forward is to let him develop at his own pace and play a specific role in the offense - deep threat, for example - rather than putting him in as the starter over clearly superior players.

Right now XL is at BEST our 4th best WR, likely our 5th best (behind TMac, Coker, Thielen and Renfrow) and may even be end up being behind Jimmy Horn by season's end.

Not Dan Morgan's best work, that pick. But trying to force it will only make things worse.

Edited August 12 by Jay Roosevelt

[CRA]

16 minutes ago, Navy_football said:

Who would be a better fit for XL? Spencer Rattler? FTR, I agree their skillsets don't really match - so far. Ladd was definitely the best fit for Bryce at that pick. 

I mean, when we were talking about that draft...I think most conceded XL fit the classic mold of the Canales tree and we wouldn't really start to max that pick until BY was replaced (and most assumed that was the likely outcome).  And it basically played out exactly how we thought.  Until it didn't. 

But yeah, 100%.  The day we drafted BY I started screaming for a great slot WR (which isn't slow AT) and a great rec RB.  That was the easiest way to start maxing BY's skill set.  We didn't do that.  In fact, we went out and spent a boatload on one of the worst rec RBs in the NFL in Sanders.   BY needs YAC players.  And a YAC offense.  Football doesn't have to be as hard as Carolina makes it. 

my position was always clear.  I'm cool w/ BY pending we attempted a BY offense.  I'm cool w/ Canales pending we move on from BY.  Instead we get this inbetween whatever.  The no man's land and not being all in on a direction is what I detest and that is largely my collective irritation with the org for some time.  

[CRA]

16 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

TBH, I don't think a better QB would fix XL. If anything, it would likely expose his flaws further, IMO.

I was heavily anti-XL because he was such an unpolished player and an older one at that. So I think the crux of this is that we fall on different sides of that aisle from the start.

The thing we should be able to agree on is that XL very much needs to improve(and a lot) or his time here is likely going to be far shorter than either of us should want.

it's not even about a better QB.  It's about fit, offensive scheme and what you are asking and expecting out of folks.  That how you get success. 

where you land matters in the NFL.  It's one of the most important aspects of success.  We all knew XL wouldn't fit a BY offense.  He fit the classic Canales one.  And we simply do not throw those balls.  And those balls are not about being a polished WR.  The ones BY throws are. 

 

[PNW_PantherMan]

26 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I fell on the side of taking the clear football player over the guy that might one day become a football player.

We'd have a much higher hit rate in the draft with that line of thinking.  What's the point of hitting on a Megatron if you're the Lions?  Great teams are not built with a scratch off ticket.

Edited August 12 by PNW_PantherMan