Okay gentlemen, REAL talk...

[Mr. Scot]

17 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

Legitimate improvement is really debatable 

Not really...

Bryce is better than last year; worlds better than the year before.

Mind you, that doesn't mean he should be signed to a long term deal, but it's there. 

[SmokinwithWilly]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

To be fair, Jake Delhomme has more than three years under his belt when he came to us.

Bryce has shown legitimate improvement season over season. I don't think we can deny that. 

Jake was not the 1st overall pick either. There's a level of expected readiness that comes from being drafted at that position. Pre draft, Bryce was the most NFL ready QB in a decade according to experts, top QB across multiple draft boards. That was never Jake. So comparing him to Jake's career path is disingenuous. 

I don't see legitimate significant improvement. I see an outlier game in Atl and good plays dropped here and there, but overall, the bulk product hasn't been anything that has made me think we need to extend him, or option him. 

Matt Flynn had a 400 yard outlier game, got a huge contract, and disappeared into obscurity. Take away Bryce's best and worst game each season as the outliers and analyze the rest. It all looks the same. Never a complete QB driven game start to finish. A lot of poor placement. Some good throws. Same bad mechanics and bad footwork. Not enough to say give me 2 more years of this 

[CRA]

37 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

 

Bryce has shown legitimate improvement season over season. I don't think we can deny that. 

Josh Allen had legitimate improvement. 

Bryce Young is more the same than he is improved.  The legitimate improvement that people can't deny is the OL play each season, the rush attack and the D vs last year.  The throws and coverage Bryce struggles with are pretty much the same.   

I think he is seeing a comp % bump that is product of Canales largely acknowledging Bryce can't do a lot (the whole argument made by many that he calls games how he has to because of Bryce).  Bad throw % remains super high, he still fumbles a lot, he basically needs man coverage do to anything, isn't threatening downfield, the book is sort of out on how to stop him and make him irrelevant.  I just mean because Atlanta refuses to do it to him and a couple 4th and shorts don't allow the setup....that doesn't change the overall book.    And he will never really be able to improve on his physical tool limitations. 

[PNW_PantherMan]

The team plays around Bryce right now and that works to a degree.  Is it championship worthy?  Debatable at best.  It's gonna be tougher to do that if he's entrenched as a starter with a 2nd contract.

Take the human element out of it, and it makes a lot of sense to reset the clock on the QB contract with a fresh face.  But we are dealing with the human element almost exclusively with the Panthers.

[CRA]

6 minutes ago, SmokinwithWilly said:

Take away Bryce's best and worst game each season as the outliers and analyze the rest. It all looks the same. 

this has always been my go to.  Take someone's very best game out and very worst.  Both ends of the spectrum distort the most.   Judge them after that, because that is who they are.   And if you do that with Bryce?  Well, that's not a starting caliber QB.  Not any of the 3 seasons.

[CRA]

what game do people feel is Bryce's actual worst on the season.  Not fantasy stat wise.  Just actual  QB performance?   

[Mr. Scot]

Just now, SmokinwithWilly said:

Jake was not the 1st overall pick either. There's a level of expected readiness that comes from being drafted at that position. Pre draft, Bryce was the most NFL ready QB in a decade according to experts, top QB across multiple draft boards. That was never Jake. So comparing him to Jake's career path is disingenuous. 

I don't see legitimate significant improvement. I see an outlier game in Atl and good plays dropped here and there, but overall, the bulk product hasn't been anything that has made me think we need to extend him, or option him. 

Matt Flynn had a 400 yard outlier game, got a huge contract, and disappeared into obscurity. Take away Bryce's best and worst game each season as the outliers and analyze the rest. It all looks the same. Never a complete QB driven game start to finish. A lot of poor placement. Some good throws. Same bad mechanics and bad footwork. Not enough to say give me 2 more years of this 

I mentioned Jake as an example of three years not necessarily telling the full story.

Once they hit the field for their first NFL game, draft status loses all meaning outside of "biggest bust / best value" conversations between analysts and fans. Coaches and GMs should never take that into account. Performance is all that matters.

As far as "complete games", people love guys who lead fourth quarter comebacks. What nobody ever seems to mention in that context is the reason you need a "fourth quarter comeback' is because you're losing after three and a half. That's why I'm not as big a fan of that metric. 

But I do have to concede that it does point to a "clutch" factor and, more importantly, to winning games. 

If Bryce continues to so that or progresses to doing it consistently, I'm not gonna fret about mediocre to lousy stats.

And lemme tell you, as a guy who pines after consistency, the Panthers quarterback history (even the good parts) does not paint a pretty picture

(this team turns "ugly wins" into an art form)

[Mr. Scot]

2 minutes ago, CRA said:

what game do people feel is Bryce's actual worst on the season.  Not fantasy stat wise.  Just actual  QB performance?   

Saints game, although some of the early season contests were ugly too. 

[frankw]

48 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

To be fair, Jake Delhomme has more than three years under his belt when he came to us.

Bryce has shown legitimate improvement season over season. I don't think we can deny that. 

Bryce Young has already played in nearly half the number of games Delhomme played in over his entire career with the Panthers. And in that timespan he has began the season 3 years in a row playing quite poorly.

Even the "improvement" 42 games in is still sandwiched in between very mediocre to poor QB play. And that has all been within the last 2 months.

We are seeing more instances of "improvement" in the sample size because we are giving him more opportunities than we've given just about any other QB (along with the highest paid OL in the league) when considering the number of games he's played and the percentage of underwhelming play within that. At the end of this season he will surpass Kerry Collins for number of games played and if he starts the bulk of next season he will match or surpass Steve Beuerlein.

The Panthers are unequivocally giving Bryce the benefit of the doubt. And it could be argued he is getting a pass quite a few guys have never gotten.

[Mr. Scot]

14 minutes ago, CRA said:

Josh Allen had legitimate improvement. 

Bryce Young is more the same than he is improved.  The legitimate improvement that people can't deny is the OL play each season, the rush attack and the D vs last year.  The throws and coverage Bryce struggles with are pretty much the same.   

I think he is seeing a comp % bump that is product of Canales largely acknowledging Bryce can't do a lot (the whole argument made by many that he calls games how he has to because of Bryce).  Bad throw % remains super high, he still fumbles a lot, he basically needs man coverage do to anything, isn't threatening downfield, the book is sort of out on how to stop him and make him irrelevant.  I just mean because Atlanta refuses to do it to him and a couple 4th and shorts don't allow the setup....that doesn't change the overall book.    And he will never really be able to improve on his physical tool limitations. 

Don't agree at all.

We're winning more games than before, including against good teams with good defenses.

And no, it isn't "in spite of him". That argument is silly.

Yes, he's better. 

What he's not...is consistent, and I have a tough time fixing my hopes on a "franchise quarterback" who isn't consistent.

But if we're all being completely honest...

...this wouldn't be the first time we've done that.

[Mr. Scot]

16 minutes ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

The team plays around Bryce right now and that works to a degree.  Is it championship worthy?  Debatable at best.  It's gonna be tougher to do that if he's entrenched as a starter with a 2nd contract.

Take the human element out of it, and it makes a lot of sense to reset the clock on the QB contract with a fresh face.  But we are dealing with the human element almost exclusively with the Panthers.

Yep, and if you want to try and gauge the "human element" of the team, watch the videos of the locker room celebrations, paying particular attention to when Canales talks about Bryce. 

[CRA]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Don't agree at all.

We're winning more games than before, including against good teams with good defenses.

And no, it isn't "in spite of him". That argument is silly.

Yes, he's better. 

What he's not...is consistent, and I have a tough time fixing my hopes on a "franchise quarterback" who isn't consistent.

But if we're all being completely honest...

...this wouldn't be the first time we've done that.

did you read the part of the post where it talked about the Panthers being clearly better in some areas?  I'm talking about so clearly better there is virtually no disagreement on this board that thrives off of disagreement.    Yeah, that's how you win more games than last year. 

 

[Mr. Scot]

4 minutes ago, frankw said:

Bryce Young has already played in nearly half the number of games Delhomme played in over his entire career with the Panthers. And in that timespan he has began the season 3 years in a row playing quite poorly.

Even the "improvement" 42 games in is still sandwiched in between very mediocre to poor QB play. And that has all been within the last 2 months.

We are seeing more instances of "improvement" in the sample size because we are giving him more opportunities than we've given just about any other QB (along with the highest paid OL in the league) when considering the number of games he's played and the percentage of underwhelming play within that. At the end of this season he will surpass Kerry Collins for number of games played and if he starts the bulk of next season he will match or surpass Steve Beuerlein.

The Panthers are unequivocally giving Bryce the benefit of the doubt. And it could be argued he is getting a pass quite a few guys have never gotten.

I've argued before in this thread that the early season mediocrity isn't just Bryce.

Very few NFL teams look great all season. Some start slow but get better. Others start strong but fade. The difference is offseason preparation and pacing throughout the aeason.

Under Canales, the whole team comes out of the gate looking like sh-t, but they finish the season looking like winners. His in-season coaching and pacing seems to be solid. The offseason part...not so much

That's why I want them to bring someone aboard who can coach Canales up on his offseason preparation. That includes helping Bryce get up to speed because what we're doing with him now obviously isn't cutting it.

[Mr. Scot]

3 minutes ago, CRA said:

did you read the part of the post where it talked about the Panthers being clearly better in some areas?  I'm talking about so clearly better there is virtually no disagreement on this board that thrives off of disagreement.    Yeah, that's how you win more games than last year. 

No, that's cherry picking. And it's really just a different spin on the "winning in spite of him" argument.

Bottom Line: You cannot logically support the notion that everybody gets credit for wins except Bryce.

Now mind you, even with acknowledging all these things, it remains possible to suggest that we should move on from Bryce (I still am) but basing the argument on this kind of thinking or hyperbole like "worst quarterback in the league" is weak.