shough vs tmac off rookie of the year

[MasterAwesome]

9 minutes ago, CRA said:

it still gets really weird when folks want to not isolate numbers for backups that enter a games and log 0 pass yards.  It distorts all of their stats if you compare them to actual starters. 

Shough is 4-3 as a starter on a very bad team.  In this starts he is:

68% for 237 passing yards and 19 rush per game. 9 TDs.  6 TOs. 

That's dang good play for a 2nd round pick thrust into the role midseason on a bad team.  It flat out is what it is.  

Should flat out deserves some props.  If folks here can't do that, it's just Saints hatred or Bryce insecurity preventing football talk

ALL THAT SAID, he is too late to the convo.  It's a 2 man race.   Last 2 games likely decide between the WRs. 

 

 

Oh boy how the tables have turned...the passion and extent at which you defend Shough would make even the staunchest Bryce fanboys blush.  The bold part is especially straight from their playbook.  Even if someone here were to withhold giving Shough props, it's pretty understandable as a Panthers fan.  What's quite odd is becoming the biggest stan of our most hated rival's starting QB.  I don't think even Saints fans drool over him this hard.

For the record I think this talk about "stans" and "fanboys" is cringe AF and I'm admittedly being rather hyperbolic because this is exactly the kind of discourse and language you personally love to engage in and it's fun to play in the mud from time to time.  There is absolutely no world where you do not meet your own criteria of a "Super Stan" for Shough with how loosely you apply that label to people for Bryce in here.  You're like the Final Boss of Super Stans.

[CRA]

2 minutes ago, mav1234 said:

Also note I am not saying he 1) deserves OROTY, or 2) is better QB than X, Y, or Z. I just am impressed by him so far. But plenty of players come in for a handful of games and look good only to falter longer term.

agreed.  Lack of games/opportunity makes him a non-factor in OROTY talk.  He is just now getting the stage where there is legit film on him.  Takes awhile to really see how guys react to all the different scenarios and to find the real weak spots on a QB's play in an O. 

[mav1234]

3 minutes ago, CRA said:

his completion % and yards per game  in starts would put him in top 10 in both those categories.  team win % is also the same as Bryce while sporting a higher QB rating and QBR in his starts as well.   For a 2nd rounder on a bad team......it is flat out very good play.  That's not LOVING Shough.  It's just talking NFL football. 

I mean, this could be his Kyle Allen window minus the absurd fumbles and he disappears.  But it's clear some can't handle Shough being talked about purely because of how it reflects on Bryce (which ruins a TON of NFL QB talk). 

It's really early but yes I agree Shough looks very impressive. I kinda hope he falls off because if he looks this good already it doesn't bode well for us, lol

[CRA]

27 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

Oh boy how the tables have turned...the passion and extent at which you defend Shough would make even the staunchest Bryce fanboys blush.  The bold part is especially straight from their playbook.  Even if someone here were to withhold giving Shough props, it's pretty understandable as a Panthers fan.  What's quite odd is becoming the biggest stan of our most hated rival's starting QB.  I don't think even Saints fans drool over him this hard.

For the record I think this talk about "stans" and "fanboys" is cringe AF and I'm admittedly being rather hyperbolic because this is exactly the kind of discourse and language you personally love to engage in and it's fun to play in the mud from time to time.  There is absolutely no world where you do not meet your own criteria of a "Super Stan" for Shough with how loosely you apply that label to people for Bryce in here.  You're like the Final Boss of Super Stans.

I give zero shits about Tyler Shough.  I do think it is relevant to see where in our own division a random 2nd rounder on a worse team.....is presently outplaying our #1 overall pick in his 3rd season.  And of course, if you are talking about rookie play....yeah, Shough deserves some props.  Which is why I also keep bringing up Fannin Jr.  They deserve some mentions given they have virtually a zero % chance to win because they came out of nowhere vs favorites/media darlings at their spots and are late to the party. 

and outside of what you are trying to do here....I think most know my Shough posting is really Bryce Young posting.   It's getting to the Bryce issue via another channel. 

 

[MasterAwesome]

9 minutes ago, mav1234 said:

It isn't really fair to include his numbers when he was a backup when trying to look at his performance.  His Y/A is at 7.1 in starts which is right on the league average. He is low in TD%, but he's also getting rushing TDs, and using his legs a decent amount - 1.3 total TDs per game isn't bad (Bryce and Mayfield are both at 1.6). His YPG in starts puts him at 10th in the league (he's actually 40+ yards above Bryce there, his YPG in stats is 237 vs 192).

That said, I'm not "sold" on him. He looks better than a ton of QBs for his team and fact he's a rookie but way too early to say much.

Ok fair to judge only his starts.  But you do acknowledge that going from "he's waaaay above league average in a number of categories" to "here's a single stat where he's above league average (not "waaaay") and another where he is exactly at the league average" is a pretty significant backpedal, no?  I'm guessing he's probably in the ~10th range for completion percentage too if we're only looking at starts (I'm too lazy to isolate his starts and do the calculations), so I'll grant you that one too.  But I don't think completion percentage is all that meaningful as a standalone stat if it isn't bolstered by good TD%, Y/A, etc.

On that note, for how much people like posting Passing Charts in here (*cough* CRA) - if you peep Shough's passing charts, he hasn't completed a single 20+ yard pass in the past 3 games combined.  His last one was in Week 13 against the Dolphins, which was a single pass of 24 yards.  I just want to be consistent in how we apply our standards - I think it's always been warranted to criticize Bryce for it (even dating back to his rookie season), but do we suddenly not care about that with Shough?

And yeah I did acknowledge that Saints' fans have reason to be excited about him and complimented his poise, which is giving my props.  Still not sure I agree that he looks better than a "ton" of QBs nor do I think you or anyone have really demonstrated that.  I think you are generally one of the more reasonable level-headed posters which is why I'm confused at what I consider to be rather hyperbolic language about Shough.

[MasterAwesome]

17 minutes ago, CRA said:

I give zero shits about Tyler Shough.  I do think it is relevant to see where in our own division a random 2nd rounder on a worse team.....is presently outplaying our #1 overall pick in his 3rd season.  And of course, if you are talking about rookie play....yeah, Shough deserves some props.  Which is why I also keep bringing up Fannin Jr.  They deserve some mentions given they have virtually a zero % chance to win because they came out of nowhere vs favorites/media darlings at their spots and are late to the party. 

and outside of what you are trying to do here....I think most know my Shough posting is really Bryce Young posting.   It's getting the to Bryce issue via another channel. 

 

Lol you're telling me you need to explore more creative indirect avenues to express your dissatisfaction with Bryce?  Yes, surely it is impossible to talk about how poor Bryce has been playing without glazing Tyler Shough in parallel.  Sure thing...just be proud and wear your Shough #1 Fanboy badge with honor 

[CRA]

27 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

On that note, for how much people like posting Passing Charts in here (*cough* CRA) - if you peep Shough's passing charts, he hasn't completed a single 20+ yard pass in the past 3 games combined.  His last one was in Week 13 against the Dolphins, which was a single pass of 24 yards.  I just want to be consistent in how we apply our standards - I think it's always been warranted to criticize Bryce for it (even dating back to his rookie season), but do we suddenly not care about that with Shough?

 

well, last week he had 6 pass attempts over 20+ yards.   Fair to say, he was consistently trying to keep the Jets honest in a game that was literally all on his shoulders from the jump given they are out of RBs in NO.  

the Saints managed a win despite putting Shough in the exact scenario you essentially guarantee to lose in w/ young QBs.   Going all QB essentially w/ the gameplan.  

I do not think the film has had time to catch Shough yet.  It will.  Then you have to see if he can respond to that.  But yeah, he is a pretty cool little story if you are largely a NFL fan/talker.  

I mean, if we had prime Cam Newton and no worries at QB.....I think the reaction to talking QB play in the NFCS right now might be a little different.  Don't think people would freak out because the Saints hit a little streak and we compliment the dude from out of nowhere (and the out of nowhere part is basically why it's talked about)

[joeyxfresco]

Stuff like this is why this fanbase will never be taken serious. Saints fans can rally around a subpar QB and get excited for the future. Meanwhile, we’re a game away from locking down the division and a good chunk of the fanbase is looking at the salary cap and mock drafts to replace the QB responsible for our recent success 

[L-TownCat]

You can’t play half a season and win a season long award.  It was a miracle Peppers won DROY after getting suspended the final 4 games.

In no way shape or form should that QB be in the conversation.

[strato]

Well Shough is 3-3 on a team and replaced a QB what I had considered a QB comparable to Bryce that was 1-7 with the same team and coaching staff. 
Between Shough and Young I know which one I’d take, despite some clutch Bryce stuff that has popped up this year. The overall game is just better. More. I feel like Shough can make every throw Bryce can and a bunch that he can’t make, will see the field better, has adequate mobility - enough to call it an asset. Will run a better play action game because he can turn his back and not lose his perception of where his targets and defenders are. Can do a sneak. Throw a Hail Mary. All that pro NFL QB stuff. 

I don’t know where you can say Bryce would beat him out head to head except for possible intangible qualities. Which are hard to quantify. 
 

But he isn’t rookie of the year with 9 games played. Or 8 whatever it will be. 
 

PS when you ridicule me as not a Panthers fan, I will be rooting for Good Bryce to show up the next two weeks. Same as if Cam was there or Kyle Allen or PJ or whoever. 

Edited 59 minutes ago by strato

[mrcompletely11]

4 minutes ago, L-TownCat said:

You can’t play half a season and win a season long award.  It was a miracle Peppers won DROY after getting suspended the final 4 games.

In no way shape or form should that QB be in the conversation.

This

[CRA]

17 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

 Sure thing...just be proud and wear your Shough #1 Fanboy badge with honor 

I mean, I largely spoke about Shough initially going into the week we played the Saints (and was right about why we needed to talk about him)......and now in a thread about OROY.  Seems about right to me.   

You want to talk about Sam Darnold? I can do that because it would make sense to right about now as well.    

[shaqattaq]

1 hour ago, CRA said:

ALL THAT SAID, he is too late to the convo.  It's a 2 man race.   Last 2 games likely decide between the WRs. 

Agreed. Whichever WR makes the playoffs (I ASSUME you mean TMac vs Egbuka) gets the OROY most likely. Both players have been lights out all season. Tmac still edges him out so far in every category:

yards = 924 - 910

YPG  = 61.6 - 60.7

TDs = 7 - 6

catches = 65 - 59

[CRA]

6 minutes ago, shaqattaq said:

Agreed. Whichever WR makes the playoffs (I ASSUME you mean TMac vs Egbuka) gets the OROY most likely. Both players have been lights out all season. Tmac still edges him out so far in every category:

yards = 924 - 910

YPG  = 61.6 - 60.7

TDs = 7 - 6

catches = 65 - 59

yeah, I think Egbuka was the slight betting fav going into last Sun.  Tmac now jumped him.  Tight enough Egbuka could jump back this weekend (Phins vs Hawks is a good setup for him to). 

So, I think the OROY is simply the result of the Panther/Bucs final.  Pending one doesn't go ham in a losing effort I think the playoff team gets the OROY.