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Are we at the point we need to rebuild or just 're tool'?


Highlandfire

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What does this team really need? Is it so much we can't add a few pieces and compete? I say it isn't that bad.

First off this OL was considered one of the best in the NFL before last year. Injuries devastated it. No OL = crap run game and passing game. the good news is backups got playing time, the better news is we are going to get those injured guys back so it should be a top OL again.

What else do we need on Offense to compete. QB? Yeah but not a rookie, he is going to sit 1-2 years. We need a veteran that has a few years left or a young vet to just take over. I am inclined to see if we could get Orton or Kolb. Lets see what Chud can do with either of these guys. No matter what you think of them both are an upgrade to what we have and still haven't maxed out their potential.

Running game is there if the OL is healthy, WR's developed nicely last year. We have an aged upgrade at TE which should help and allow our OC to work with the current guys or even draft one to goom.

Defense? 18th last year due to DL play. We have DE's, we need DT help. That can be found in the 2nd round of the draft or so along with a FA pickup (yes i know, we need a 2nd so trade down in the first to get one). Linebacker is good if we get guys back from injury and the secondary isn't horrible but could use upgrades there.

I feel coaching is the #1 thing that has hamstrung us and I believe we have greatly upgraded that.

This team isn't as bad off as fans would like to think. We have seen Miami go from a horrible team to playoffs in one season. We do things right there is no reason this team can't start contending for the playoffs by the end of the 2011 season and definitely 2012.

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Kolb is costing at LEAST 1 first round pick. They set the price yesterday. To me trading is more expensive and more detrimental than drafting a QB.

FA QBs generally are no good which is why they are FA in the first place.

If you really want to get really good as soon as possible you do so by drafting a QB. It may not pay off the first year but look at what guys like Freeman and Ryan did in their second years. Short term loss for long term gain.

That is how you build the QB position.

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the team is pretty solid and with some decent coaching hopefully we can improve just based on that. I feel good about most of the team. I would put our needs in this order

1.QB-dire, not saying we need a new qb just better play out of them

2.DT-dire, we really have no talent in the trenches. We have a lot of hustle guys who dont have the talent to be much more than a 3rd tackle

3.CB-somewhat needy. We played pretty well with only 2 starting caliber CB's (marshall and the captain) however I would like captain to say in the nickel and bring in a new guy if we lose marshall.

4. OT-somewhat needy, we had Garry Williams starting more than half the year which just shouldnt happen. I would like some depth there.

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Kolb is costing at LEAST 1 first round pick. They set the price yesterday. To me trading is more expensive and more detrimental than drafting a QB.

FA QBs generally are no good which is why they are FA in the first place.

If you really want to get really good as soon as possible you do so by drafting a QB. It may not pay off the first year but look at what guys like Freeman and Ryan did in their second years. Short term loss for long term gain.

That is how you build the QB position.

Philly is going with a guy they got from Prison, a free agent. Chicago made the playoffs with a QB from a trade. What about Matt Schaub? I'd take that kid in a heart beat.

I know Philly wants a first, doesn't mean they will get as high as they want. That said, trade for Orton. you forgot one way to get a good QB is for one team to be stupid which I feel the Broncos are. Pat Bowlen used to be one of the better owners but the decisions made the last 4 years or so leads me to believe he is losing it. Now he and elway started shopping Orton then pulled back before the CBA thingy blew up.

Lastly you site Freeman and Ryan, guys in our division. The entire QB class this year is rated lower than Ryan when he was coming out Imho and might at best be freeman's class. NONE are worth #1 period.

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Philly is going with a guy they got from Prison, a free agent. Chicago made the playoffs with a QB from a trade. What about Matt Schaub? I'd take that kid in a heart beat.

I know Philly wants a first, doesn't mean they will get as high as they want. That said, trade for Orton. you forgot one way to get a good QB is for one team to be stupid which I feel the Broncos are. Pat Bowlen used to be one of the better owners but the decisions made the last 4 years or so leads me to believe he is losing it. Now he and elway started shopping Orton then pulled back before the CBA thingy blew up.

Lastly you site Freeman and Ryan, guys in our division. The entire QB class this year is rated lower than Ryan when he was coming out Imho and might at best be freeman's class. NONE are worth #1 period.

According to Peter King of SI they already have an offer in place whenever the CBA is finalized. But they want a higher draft pick than what has laready been offered.

The two FA that have been successful were pro bowlers before they were free agents and have weird circumstances that led to their free agency. Who is out their this year that were as good as Brees or Vick before becoming FA's??

I would never have made the trade Chicago made to get Cutler. They gave up way too many draft picks in addition to Kyle Orton. And at times Chicago won despite Jay Cutler instead of bc of him.

Saying none are worth number 1 is just an opinion that means nothing. You can't compare how a QB would be rated in other drafts because it is unquantifiable. You also have no idea what this draft class will look like in 5 years. The only way that this becomes a "fact" is if no one is taken. Otherwise it is just your opinion that does not seem to be shared with most NFL scouts.

Maybe Cam Newton, Gabbert, and Mallett all turn out to be pro bowlers. And Stanzi, Dalton, and Ponder become legit starters in the NFL.

If that happened 5 years from now this could be touted as the greatest QB class in history.

So unless you are a psychic you have no idea what these guy's value is or is not. Just an opinion.

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QB and DT are really the only places we need drastic improvement, rest of the team was pretty solid.

Absolutely. I think we have to have a CB, DT, DT, QB. It would be nice to add a DE, WR, OL depth. With a trade down, we can.

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Rookie Qbs only sit on the bench for half a season-1 year maximum..i don't know where this 2-3 years comes from. If our team around them is good as you say it will be easier to have them learn from experience then a clipboard.

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Rookie Qbs only sit on the bench for half a season-1 year maximum..i don't know where this 2-3 years comes from. If our team around them is good as you say it will be easier to have them learn from experience then a clipboard.

2-3 yrs is what teams use to prefer "back in da day". The NFL has changed and you have to be ready to go in at some point your rookie year and at least prove you belong in the NFL. It doesn't take a half decade to rebuild now......and QBs aren't allowed to sit. It is a NOW league in just about every aspect.

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On defense, we need a solid DT or two, and possibly a CB. On offense, we already have a new QB Coach and Offensive Coordinator, which were our biggest needs last season.

Right now we're another 7-9 to 9-7 team if we stand pat and get lucky where injuries are concerned.

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On defense, we need a solid DT or two, and possibly a CB. On offense, we already have a new QB Coach and Offensive Coordinator, which were our biggest needs last season.

Right now we're another 7-9 to 9-7 team if we stand pat and get lucky where injuries are concerned.

Exactly. Coaching has cleaned up our biggest issues. Do we need a QB upgrade, sure but it can wait.

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2-3 yrs is what teams use to prefer "back in da day". The NFL has changed and you have to be ready to go in at some point your rookie year and at least prove you belong in the NFL. It doesn't take a half decade to rebuild now......and QBs aren't allowed to sit. It is a NOW league in just about every aspect.

And that is why QB's fail, they are pressed into service before ready. MONEY is why they are on the field faster than normal. When you guarantee 20 mill to a kid he gets on the field NOW.

ALL of these QB's need to sit at least one, most likely 2 years and go the 'Aaron Rogers' route as for as development. I bet if teams went back to that old way of doing things you would see more teams with successful QB play.

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    • The referee assigned to this game is Shawn Smith. This is a critical data point for betting purposes because his crew has one of the most distinct, long-term statistical biases in the NFL. "Road Team" Bias: Historically, Shawn Smith is known as the "Road Team Referee." In a league where home teams usually win ~55% of the time, home teams in Smith's games have historically won at a rate far below league average (often hovering around 40-42%). Against The Spread (ATS): The trend is even starker here. Home teams have covered the spread at a rate of roughly 37-40% in his career. The Mechanism: Analysis shows his crew tends to call a higher rate of False Start and Unnecessary Roughness penalties on the Home Team. This negates the traditional home-field advantage (crowd noise causing false starts for the visitors). Impact on This Game: This specific assignment heavily favors the Buccaneers (Road Team). If you believe the referee influences the game, Smith's presence suggests the Panthers will struggle to get "home cooking" calls and may face untimely procedural flags that stall drives. The Panthers have only had Shawn Smith officiate four home games since he became a head referee in 2018, and they are all losses. Date Opponent Result Score Nov 24, 2024 vs. Kansas City Chiefs Loss 27–30 Oct 9, 2022 vs. San Francisco 49ers Loss 15–37 Dec 12, 2021 vs. Atlanta Falcons Loss 21–29 Nov 25, 2018 vs. Seattle Seahawks Loss 27–30 Considering the how rare it is for Shawn Smith to officiate a Panthers game at all, this seems like an odd time to assign him to a Panthers game, unless the NFL wants to kill the Panthers season once and for all.  The Panthers' offensive line situation creates a "perfect storm" for referee Shawn Smith's specific tendency to call False Starts on the home team. The "Carousel" Factor (Communication Vulnerability) The most damning stat for the Panthers' offensive line in 2025 is their lack of continuity. The Stat: By Week 13, the Panthers had already fielded their 10th different offensive line combination. The Impact: False starts are often "communication penalties"—they happen when a guard doesn't hear the center's snap count or a tackle anticipates the wrong cadence. A unit that hasn't played together struggles with non-verbal communication. The Shawn Smith Multiplier: Shawn Smith’s crew calls False Starts at a high rate on home teams. He will likely look for flinches on the exterior of the line. A disjointed line that is constantly rotating players (due to the injuries of starters like Cade Mays and the illness issues with Robert Hunt earlier this season) is "fresh meat" for this specific referee bias. The Specific Culprits (2025 Penalties) Ikem Ekwonu (LT): Leads the team with 4 False Start penalties this season. He is the most frequent violator on the line. Taylor Moton (RT): Has been flagged for 3 False Starts. The Trap: Smith’s crew often focuses on the tackles (the players furthest from the ball) jumping early to get an edge on speed rushers. Since Ekwonu struggles with this discipline naturally, having a referee who hunts for it is a massive disadvantage. The "Managed Outcome" Synthesis The "Bucs Cover" Script: If the desired outcome is a Buccaneers win to solidify their playoff standing, the officials simply have to apply the letter of the law. Calling strict False Starts on a confused, banged-up Panthers O-line will consistently put them in "3rd and Long" situations, killing their drives and allowing the Bucs (-3.5) to cover easily. The "Close Game" Script: If the desired outcome is "Week 18 Drama" (keeping the division tied), look for the officials to ignore the Panthers' twitchy tackles. If Ekwonu jumps a split-second early and no flag is thrown, it effectively neutralizes the Bucs' pass rush, allowing the Panthers to keep the score close. Summary of the Edge Vulnerability: Extreme. The Panthers are playing backup interior linemen (like Jake Curhan or practice squad call-ups) next to jumpy tackles. Betting Implication: This strongly reinforces the Bucs -3 or -3.5 play. The combination of a "Road Team Referee" and a "Home Team O-Line in chaos" suggests the Panthers will beat themselves with procedural penalties. Based on the collision of the hard data (Referee bias + Offensive Line injuries) and the soft narratives ("Managed Outcomes"), here is the definitive recommendation. If you have to place a single Moneyline bet to win this game straight up: The Pick: Tampa Bay Buccaneers (-165) While the "Entertainment Script" hints at a Panthers upset to keep the division messy, the structural disadvantage the Panthers face in this specific matchup is too massive to ignore. Here is why the Buccaneers are the stong moneyline play: 1. The "Shawn Smith" Road-Field Advantage This is the decisive factor. In the NFL, Home Field Advantage usually accounts for about 1.5 to 2 points of value. The Reality: Referee Shawn Smith negates that advantage entirely. His crew calls penalties in a way that historically suppresses home crowd momentum (False Starts, holding). The Result: You are essentially getting the Buccaneers on a neutral field (or even a "pseudo-home" field) against a team with a worse roster. 2. The "Drive-Killer" Synergy To win as an underdog, the Panthers need to play a clean, mistake-free game to keep drives alive. The combination of Panthers' 10th O-Line combo + Jump-prone Tackles (Ekwonu) + A Referee who hunts False Starts is a recipe for disaster. The Scenario: Expect the Panthers to face multiple "1st and 15" or "3rd and 12" situations due to procedural flags. These drive-killers will force them to punt or settle for field goals, while the Bucs' offense (led by Mayfield) stays on schedule. 3. The "TV Product" Counter-Argument You asked about the "Managed Outcome." While a Panthers win creates "chaos," the NFL also values Star Power in the playoffs. Baker Mayfield and the Buccaneers are a proven national TV draw with recent playoff history. If the league has to choose between "Chaos" (Panthers) and "Ratings/Legitimacy" (Bucs), the "Script" likely leans toward ensuring the Buccaneers—the more marketable team—secure the division lead. They won't "fix" the game against the Panthers, but they won't intervene to save them from their own penalties. Final Verdict Betting on the Panthers requires you to hope for a miracle 4th-quarter collapse. Betting on the Buccaneers requires you to trust that a superior roster—aided by a favorable officiating crew—will control the game for the first 45 minutes. Take the Buccaneers Moneyline. The "Safe" money is on the Ref. The Prediction: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Win and Cover Projected Score: Buccaneers 27, Panthers 17 The Bet: Buccaneers -3 (or Moneyline -165) Confidence Level: High on the Winner; Moderate on the Spread (due to potential "garbage time" variance).
    • He isn't a good HC. I think he has proved that conclusively.
    • The missed tackle percentage is on that screen cap.
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