Could the Panthers pull off a 4-3/3-4 hybrid?

[rayzor]

I should be working but I got distracted.

I saw this article from last year about hybrid defenses and it got me thinking if it is something that the panthers have the personnel for (with or without pep).

We have tried different formations situationally before, lining up Peppers in different places before, but how many of them could be considered resembling a 3-4?

Hybrid is defined as an offspring produced by parents of different races, a crossbreed. A hybrid car is one that uses two sources of power. A hybrid defense is one that uses the 4-3 and 3-4 defensive packages -- and I don't mean a 3-4 defense that will use a four-man rush on third downs.

A true hybrid defense is one that will use either package on any down -- and in any game. The defensive coaches who are truly in the hybrid business will look closely at an opponent and take advantage of the best matchup they get during a particular game. Hybrid coaches feel they make their opponent prepare for every possible look and then they dictate what works best for them. While it makes sense, pulling it off isn't that easy. If it were, then everyone would be doing it.

Here are the problems that confront coaches who claim to be hybrid defensive disciples:

» It starts up front with the defensive line. A 4-3 defense looks for quick, one-gap penetrating linemen who can get into the backfield and disrupt plays. A 3-4 defense looks for much bigger linemen who can engage offensive linemen on the line of scrimmage and keep blockers off the linebackers as they work down the line of scrimmage. Linemen in the 3-4 want to command a double-team block; 4-3 linemen want to beat a single block every time. A hybrid defense wants its linemen to be able to do either thing when asked. A guy like Warren Sapp was great at one-gap penetration, but would struggle as a two-gapper in a 3-4. Players like Ty Warren and Richard Seymour in New England can do both with little trouble, but those type of players are hard to find.

» Linebackers have their own issues to deal with when switching from one package to another. Linebackers in the 4-3 defense are slightly shaded behind defensive linemen, which makes it difficult to get a blocker on them right away. Teams like the Buccaneers get away with undersized, but fast, linebackers because it is hard to block them. In a 3-4 defense, the inside linebackers have to be big and physical, because they regularly line up directly over guards who can easily get up on the backers.

It will be interesting to see how Zach Thomas does in the Dallas 3-4 defense after so many years in the Miami 4-3. A hybrid defense needs players big enough to meet power with power, yet quick enough to run sideline to sideline. The outside linebackers in the 3-4 are the primary pass rushers; defensive ends are the primary rushers in the 4-3.

One of the critical issues for teams that run a hybrid defense is finding the guy who can play outside linebacker in the 3-4 package and then be stout enough to put his hand on the ground as a defensive end in the 4-3 package. Remember what I said earlier: I'm not talking about third-and-long situations, but rather on first and second downs, when the run is as likely as the pass.

Nothing really changes that much for the secondary. Safeties down in the box have to know their fits and corners need to play the coverage that is called. Playing man or zone has a lot to do with the talent in the secondary and the philosophy of the coaches but little to do with a hybrid concept.

The Cardinals, Ravens, Raiders, Dolphins, Patriots, Jets, Cowboys, Browns, and 49ers all have used some form of the hybrid principles.

link

Problem would be on that Dline. I think Brayton would do OK as a 3-4 DE but I don't know who would go well on the other side.

Problem #2 would be the stealth involved. Could we be sneaky enough? With a whole new D coaching staff they might not be as predictable.

Problem #3 is, would the players like it? I remember how excited the players were last year at a simplified defensive playbook and running a hybrid would require a bigger (and probably more complicated) playbook. They are going to be running a new scheme anyway so would this matter much?

[TerriblePizza]

It'd be interesting, but I don't think we have the right OLBs for it, nor the DL

[Ccat]

Like many of the players are, I'm a fan of a simplified defensive playbook. However I'm always interested to try new things so I would be excited to see how we would do with it.

[rayzor]

It'd be interesting, but I don't think we have the right OLBs for it, nor the DL

off the top of my head i think davis would be good for it. we would have to move a DE back, though, who was better at pass rushing. Peppers if he is heremight be able to pull it off. johnson... i don't know. i suppose he could. hillee taylor would be someone who could do well at it.

beason and connor would be the ILBs.

the DL is the bigger conern for it. kemo would be a decent (not stellar) fit.

[dimbee]

With the current coaching staff, I don't think the Panthers could pull it off... at least not successfully. You have a traditional 4-3 HC and a Cover-2 DC- that doesn't make for a successful Hybrid 3-4/4-3, IMO

[Woodie]

I should be working but I got distracted.

I saw this article from last year about hybrid defenses and it got me thinking if it is something that the panthers have the personnel for (with or without pep).

We have tried different formations situationally before, lining up Peppers in different places before, but how many of them could be considered resembling a 3-4?

link

Problem would be on that Dline. I think Brayton would do OK as a 3-4 DE but I don't know who would go well on the other side.

Problem #2 would be the stealth involved. Could we be sneaky enough? With a whole new D coaching staff they might not be as predictable.

Problem #3 is, would the players like it? I remember how excited the players were last year at a simplified defensive playbook and running a hybrid would require a bigger (and probably more complicated) playbook. They are going to be running a new scheme anyway so would this matter much?

Sure we could play a hybrid 3-4. As has been said countless times, we don't have the personnel to run a base 3-4, but situationally it is doable...especially if Peppers is here. Lewis is stout enough to handle 3-4 end for a handful of plays, and prior to being drafted, many said Johnson would fit perfectly as a 3-4 end. And of course, Kemo came from a 3-4 team as their NT. So our DL would be fine.

As for our LB's, while not ideal, they could handle a version of the alignment for a handful of plays a game. Slide Peppers in at OLB, then insert Connor at ILB along with Beason, and finally I believe Davis has the ability to be a solid pass rusher from the weakside. The biggest problem is disguising what they are doing since bringing Connor in could be a giveaway, unless he either has taken over as SLB from Diggs, or regularly subs for him, even when in 4-3.

If Peppers is gone (which I think he will be), it makes it a little more difficult, unless we get a speed rusher like Sidbury in the draft. While I don't think he would be a total liability in an occasional 3-4, Diggs probably wouldn't be much help either. So, I guess a lot would depend on if we find someone else that can fit in as a 3-4 LB.

Bottom line, we could do it situationally, but if we tried to make it our base (which would never happen under Fox), we would get exposed. But to be honest, i don't expect to see much of it, even situationally, since Fox just is not a fan of that formation.

[Fireball77]

With the current coaching staff, I don't think the Panthers could pull it off... at least not successfully. You have a traditional 4-3 HC and a Cover-2 DC- that doesn't make for a successful Hybrid 3-4/4-3, IMO

Yeah, if it were permanent, I agree wholeheartedly. I would want a coach on the staff who had experience with it.The only time I ever recall a DC who never coached the 3-4 transitioning to it was Zimmer in Dallas in 2004. And he had a 3-4 defensive HC in Parcells.

I do prefer the 3-4 to the 4-3 though.

[SorthNarolina]

We already do. We don't run what I would call a "hybrid", but we do move players around in the ways that others in this topic have described.

Peppers, brayton, and Johnson have all been stand up rushers and I have all had some experience in coverage in the flats and even the 2nd level with peppers and johnson.

It's usually fox's strategy as he is always trying to force the turnover and D-lineman dropping into coverage is tricky for most QBs to assess quickly which can lead to throwing to a guy you didn't even know was there.

I think a lot of people on here see the 3-4 and 4-3 in a far too simple way. the scheme is rarely the cause of our problems, it's usually execution. Most people who want us to switch don't seem to realize that we already use packages that fit their words exactly.

[scpanther22]

i think we need to do something because for the past 2 years..2 star DEF players wanted to leave because of are DEF..

[dpanthersman]

i like the idea. i thnk our lbs will be fine. but i think the only question mark would be the dl. kemo would be good, and i thnk brayton would be a good de if we could pick up a FA to play the other de position i think it would would out pretty good. aslong as the players could learn the playbook, i heard one of the reasons they ran such a simple defense last year was alot of the younger players had some trouble with the playbook

[carpanfan96]

It really depends on which way we go during the draft....(if we trade peppers, which I think we need to do). Say we trade him for a 1st, and two 3rds.) If we go with the smaller DE's who are quick, like Connor Barwin or such then I could see us pulling it off effectively. Using a true hybrid where you run about 50 - 50 or 60 - 40 depending on the team and the situation. First round Robert Ayers, 2nd - (move up for Barwin), 3rd corner........

4-3 line up

DE - Brayton, Johnson, Barwin, Taylor, Ayers

DT - Kemo, Lewis, Ayers

3-4

DE - Ayers, Lewis, Johnson, Brayton

DT - Kemo

OLB - Davis, Taylor

ILB - Beason

ILB - Connor

OLB - Barwin, Taylor

[mantal]

We already do. We don't run what I would call a "hybrid", but we do move players around in the ways that others in this topic have described.

Peppers, brayton, and Johnson have all been stand up rushers and I have all had some experience in coverage in the flats and even the 2nd level with peppers and johnson.

It's usually fox's strategy as he is always trying to force the turnover and D-lineman dropping into coverage is tricky for most QBs to assess quickly which can lead to throwing to a guy you didn't even know was there.

I think a lot of people on here see the 3-4 and 4-3 in a far too simple way. the scheme is rarley the cause of our problems, it's usually execution. Most people who want us to switch don't seem to realize that we already use packages that fit their words exactly.

You said it much better than I was going to...

[scpanther22]

It really depends on which way we go during the draft....(if we trade peppers, which I think we need to do). Say we trade him for a 1st, and two 3rds.) If we go with the smaller DE's who are quick, like Connor Barwin or such then I could see us pulling it off effectively. Using a true hybrid where you run about 50 - 50 or 60 - 40 depending on the team and the situation. First round Robert Ayers, 2nd - (move up for Barwin), 3rd corner........

4-3 line up

DE - Brayton, Johnson, Barwin, Taylor, Ayers

DT - Kemo, Lewis, Ayers

3-4

DE - Ayers, Lewis, Johnson, Brayton

DT - Kemo

OLB - Davis, Taylor

ILB - Beason

ILB - Connor

OLB - Barwin, Taylor

lol i dont think are first rounder will be that high..to get him

[SMACKDAB]

We have been doing this for quite sometime now, but for some reason it isn't recognized by most for what ever reason.(mainly because we can't execute it....and maybe partly because of lack of football knowledge could be the rest)

It does take a special lineup to pull it off, and a commitment to it as well. We have the talent, and IMHO the upside of being able to line up either way is a huge advantage in throwing off offenses around the league. It's being done by several teams, and with success. Being committed to one type of defense is just to predictable(which we have been).

For example: you can't drop Pep into coverage(which makes it 3-4), and not send LB's, or a corner blitz in to rush the QB.

We've been going about it wrong, and if the kinks were to be worked out, it would be AWESOME.

Not only that, no matter what we run, contact at the line instead of playing off of receivers would help tremendously.