Perspective on our RB Situation

[unicar15]

Nobody is arguing that Williams isn't a great RB in this league. A few years ago AP was probably the only back in the league that I would have taken over him. However, you can't spend 80 million bucks on running backs which is what we are going to have to do if we want to keep both Stewart and Williams. So, the logical thing to do is go one more season and decide which one we want to keep and which we want to cut loose. My money is with Stewart becuase he is 24 and Deangelo is 28.

[twylyght]

Nobody is arguing that Williams isn't a great RB in this league. A few years ago AP was probably the only back in the league that I would have taken over him. However, you can't spend 80 million bucks on running backs which is what we are going to have to do if we want to keep both Stewart and Williams. So, the logical thing to do is go one more season and decide which one we want to keep and which we want to cut loose. My money is with Stewart becuase he is 24 and Deangelo is 28.

What contracts are stated as being and what they end up being are almost always vastly different things. This is why you look at the guaranteed monies in these things. Signing bonus, roster bonus, participation, etc. are much closer to what the contract is actually worth as opposed to the initially touted numbers in the media (which is all about sensationalism)

[usmcpanthers]

You dont break double trouble up unless they want to be broken up period. Right now they both seem pretty happy. They might not like the reduced carries but maybe they realize it will prolong their career..i e more money. Ill take the balanced offense anyday! We can already pass with the best of them when we need too.

[panthers55]

you build your strengths to suit what is most effective.....

The rules are never going to go backwards and encourage more physical football. Look at the best offensive in the league right now. They have scrub running backs.

You can pay a RB like DeAngleo a huge contract to touch the ball 7 times a game or you can pay a WR/DE/TE etc. a big contract to lineup and play every snap. Makes no sense to pay Williams w/ multiple elite runners on your roster when the game is moving in a new direction.

So what you are saying is that if we can have Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady at quarterback, then we can have pooty backs and still succeed. Unfortunately we don't.

When we were putting up huge passing numbers this year early we were not winning and were one dimensional. Most offenses to be effective need the ability to run and pass equally. New Orleans which is considered the most prolific offense is number 1 in passing and 6th in rushing.

We have the ability to pay Williams and Stewart as well as pay Smith, Olsen and Shockey. When LaFell and Gettis are ready for their second contract we can determine what to do with them. It makes perfect sense to pay Williams and Stewart when you have Newton on the team giving us one of the prolific running games in the league as well (3rd overall but number 1 the last 8 games of the season) and a QB who can pass for 4000 yards. We set a franchise record for offensive yards this year. Seems to me that we are just seeing the tip of the iceburg. I see no reason to break up arguably the best offense we have ever had in Carolina.

[CatMan72]

I don't know why it's come down to an either/or when it comes to Double Trouble, there's no reason why we can't keep both these guys for the foreseeable future and they each realize that they will have longer and more successful careers while the other is around.

Very few backs have had the kind of production these guys have had without major injury, which both these guys have been able to avoid.

[panthers55]

Nobody is arguing that Williams isn't a great RB in this league. A few years ago AP was probably the only back in the league that I would have taken over him. However, you can't spend 80 million bucks on running backs which is what we are going to have to do if we want to keep both Stewart and Williams. So, the logical thing to do is go one more season and decide which one we want to keep and which we want to cut loose. My money is with Stewart becuase he is 24 and Deangelo is 28.

I agree with you that we will look at things in 2013 and makes some decisions then.

I doubt that Williams will see all of his contract unless he can perform at a high level for several more years. 80 million can be very misleading when we are talking 5 or 6 year contracts where the only thing you actually have to pay are guaranteed amount. At this point he is guaranteed a 16 million dollar signing bonus and 5 million of his second year salary. Th rest is not guaranteed and he is not likely to see all of it. If we do trade him or cut him it will be in 2013 or 2014. Truth is that the way his contract is structured, cutting him or trading him in 2012 will be almost impossible. But cutting him in 2013 or later wouldn't hurt much at all. Given his contract numbers I doubt we would be able to trade him to anybody.

[CRA]

So what you are saying is that if we can have Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady at quarterback, then we can have pooty backs and still succeed. Unfortunately we don't.

When we were putting up huge passing numbers this year early we were not winning and were one dimensional. Most offenses to be effective need the ability to run and pass equally. New Orleans which is considered the most prolific offense is number 1 in passing and 6th in rushing.

We have the ability to pay Williams and Stewart as well as pay Smith, Olsen and Shockey. When LaFell and Gettis are ready for their second contract we can determine what to do with them. It makes perfect sense to pay Williams and Stewart when you have Newton on the team giving us one of the prolific running games in the league as well (3rd overall but number 1 the last 8 games of the season) and a QB who can pass for 4000 yards. We set a franchise record for offensive yards this year. Seems to me that we are just seeing the tip of the iceburg. I see no reason to break up arguably the best offense we have ever had in Carolina.

You are right, we have Cam Newton at QB. With Cam Newton at QB you don't need to pay 2 feature RBs big money to form a duo.

to have a great running game w/ Newton going forward, you don't need that big of an investment into the RB position.

end result is to have the best team.....not best backfield on paper. Spend less at RB means you can spend more elsewhere. Not wanting to invest in both Double Trouble going forward doesn't mean we won't be balanced and don't want a feared rushing attack. Newton + Stewart + plus cheap RB who fits = flat out scary going forward after 2012.

A bigger investment in the run game made need to be made when Cam is older....but in his early 20's the uber backfield isn't needed.

[rayzor]

You are right, we have Cam Newton at QB. With Cam Newton at QB you don't need to pay 2 feature RBs big money to form a duo.

to have a great running game w/ Newton going forward, you don't need that big of an investment into the RB position.

end result is to have the best team.....not best backfield on paper. Spend less at RB means you can spend more elsewhere. Not wanting to invest in both Double Trouble going forward doesn't mean we won't be balanced and don't want a feared rushing attack. Newton + Stewart + plus cheap RB who fits = flat out scary going forward after 2012.

A bigger investment in the run game made need to be made when Cam is older....but in his early 20's the uber backfield isn't needed.

it's not a matter of need.

no we don't need to have two elite RBs, but the truth is it makes your run game better and more dependable.

newton + stewart + cheap RB <<<<<< newton + stewart + williams

that is what we have and that is what we should keep and build around. this is the talent we should build around. not that it is the center of the offense, but part of the core of it. you take the talent base you currently have and build out from it.

we don't need an uber backfield but we have one and it makes us better than the competition.

you've been throwing around the "john fox" name at those who want to have a strong run/elite RB corps under the assumption that we want that to be the base strength of our offense or that we want to be a run first team again. truthfully, though, i don't think anyone here wants that. most people recognize at this point that it is a passing league and it's been heading that way for a few years and we're just now catching up.

what we want to have is, though, the most complete and dominant overall offense that is the best in every dimension. we have that in our RB corps. the addition of cam and the scheme makes it even more-so for our run game. now the goal is to elevate every aspect of our offense to that level.

i want us to be the best in whatever phase of the game we are in and i want us to do it without sacrificing the talent that is already here. that can be done and i'm sure it will be done.

you are just too focused on the cap implications of keeping what we have, but they aren't nearly the obstacle to improving this team that you think it is.

[CRA]

it's not a matter of need.

no we don't need to have two elite RBs, but the truth is it makes your run game better and more dependable.

newton + stewart + cheap RB <<<<<< newton + stewart + williams

.

I think that is debatable though. Yes, the Newton+Stewart+Williams combo is better on paper but usage does matter.

If Newton gets 8 carries, Stewart 7 and Williams 5 in a game.

vs.

Newton gets 8, Stewart 11, cheap RB who fits scheme better gets 2

I am not sure you see what is on paper actually play out. clearly, having Double Trouble would pay off in case of injury but I personally just don't see that as enough of a reason to invest so heavily into a backfield. When other high powered offenses can get very good production from less RBs.

[twylyght]

I think that is debatable though. Yes, the Newton+Stewart+Williams combo is better on paper but usage does matter.

If Newton gets 8 carries, Stewart 7 and Williams 5 in a game.

vs.

Newton gets 8, Stewart 11, cheap RB who fits scheme better gets 2

I am not sure you see what is on paper actually play out. clearly, having Double Trouble would pay off in case of injury but I personally just don't see that as enough of a reason to invest so heavily into a backfield. When other high powered offenses can get very good production from less RBs.

Not to be a stickler for the numbers, but yours are wrong again. This year, Newton has 8, Stewart 9, and Williams 10 as the average per game. Those numbers can go a long way for a good defense that needs a few more downs to recoup (especially if it is the end of the game and we need to step on a team's neck). If we want to win the whole show, we will need everyone on deck to keep up just in our division, much less the league.

[CRA]

Not to be a stickler for the numbers, but yours are wrong again. This year, Newton has 8, Stewart 9, and Williams 10 as the average per game. Those numbers can go a long way for a good defense that needs a few more downs to recoup (especially if it is the end of the game and we need to step on a team's neck). If we want to win the whole show, we will need everyone on deck to keep up just in our division, much less the league.

I just made up random numbers.

Point was if Stewart gets the bulk of Williams' small amount of carries and the new back the leftovers.....you probably wouldn't see much of a difference.

the better Cam gets....the less of a need to have superstars in the backfield. Stewart would be more than plenty. So ultimately, I think it boils down to how good you think Newton will be. I think by the 2013 season......the need for Double Trouble will be signficantly less.

[rayzor]

I think that is debatable though. Yes, the Newton+Stewart+Williams combo is better on paper but usage does matter.

If Newton gets 8 carries, Stewart 7 and Williams 5 in a game.

vs.

Newton gets 8, Stewart 11, cheap RB who fits scheme better gets 2

I am not sure you see what is on paper actually play out. clearly, having Double Trouble would pay off in case of injury but I personally just don't see that as enough of a reason to invest so heavily into a backfield. When other high powered offenses can get very good production from less RBs.

# of carries doesn't matter near as much as effectiveness.

you have three elite ball carriers who can put up 5.5 ypa. two of them have a history of that. why cut that production level down just because the # of carries is down below what you consider to be an acceptable range?

you substitute one of those components for a cheaper, but less effective commodity and your overall production level is going to decline. more than that, you are creating a quality depth problem that wasn't there and you are doing it, as i've been saying all along, unnecessarily.

our goal isn't to be simply as good as other offenses (which is a john fox mentality, ftr). the goal is to be better than the competition. to be better than the top teams in the league.

i don't care that the saints or packers or pats have been good overall with less at RB. if we can raise the quality of just our passing game to the levels that they are at with them just throwing any old joe out there at RB then we can have a better overall offense. imo, we can raise our passing game to that level with little more than what we have now. and we can do it without sacrificing quality at other positions, like RB.

what is needed in this offense is time and experience in the scheme. in a couple years an upgrade at WR...maybe.

our WR corps and passing game should be able to compete with the best of them in a very short amount of time and the RB corps we have is what is going to put us ahead of them. we'll be more balanced and overall more talented.

[Disinfranchised]

I think if we'd stuck to the run against NO, we'd had just as good chance to catch up. The thought is pass when you are behind pass to catch up. But the run yards per atempt was more than the pass yards per attempt.

[Disinfranchised]

We'd be a bunch of dam fools to let Williams OR Stewart go.