Scott Fowler: Wins are Cam's litmus test this year

[iamhubby1]

One guy was a west coast offense guy... the other not sure....and a guy that has been closer to our top 5 and a top 12 offense.   Who would you choose?

 

I find it funny he said.. We hired a coach no one else wanted.  SO what was his point.  I am glad he was overlooked.

 

Shula was my #1 Candidate.  Sad thing is, once he does well (and he will) and the world see that the Tampa Bay Offensive Coordinator's position deal was a farce.  We'll lose him to a head coaching job.

I am with you. Jackson and Shurmur were not my choice to lead Cam and this Offense into the next generation. Although, to be honest, I am a little concerned about Shula myself. I just didn't see any viable alternatives out there at this time.

You know. With luck seemingly on our side for once. It is funny how some things never change. We need an OC that can lead a new generation of Offense. But the timing was just a little off, as to folks still learning how to play fast.

I am not a fan of giving college guys their first NFL gig. But there are precious few NFL guys that know a whole lot about the new wave Offense. Kind of a catch 22. Keep Shula and hope we can learn how to ride the wave. Or hire a college guy and hope he can handle the pressure. With Rivera having basically no job security, I can see how he would want to go with Shula.

Oh, and it is nice to see that Rivera and Shula are down with this new Offensive charge. Practice quicker so you can play quicker. Quicker plays and calls to keep the game up tempo. Good to see them on board. Coaches can be stubborn, glad these guys are adaptable.

Anyway, let the games begin.

[The NFL Shield At Midfield]

ur really comparing luck to couch? really? why r u so bitter against luck, I know the colts got lucky when luck stayed at Stanford and yall didn't get him, but u love cam so much, and cam is gonna be so great, why are you still so bitter. after reading this board a while, I think you're trying to convince yourselves that cam is the real deal. its always, when cam is able to do this or that he is gonna be scary. and before I forget, luck didn't miss the playoffs due to injury.

 

i don't hate luck so much as i hate idiots who don't know anything about football and are wowed by a guy making the playoffs and ignore actual quantifiable stuff like what i posted.  a lot of terrible quarterbacks "won games" and made the playoffs so making that the sole criteria to judge quarterbacks on is stupid.  that's the point of the couch remark-it's the flip side of dopes in the internet yelling that wins are all that matters.  sanchez and couch "won" and went to the playoffs as rookies too.  couch actually had a lot of game winning drives and clutch victories which should make him a hall of fame lock apparently.  a lot of what are now considered great quarterbacks really sucked or were underwhelming when they started out or "put up the stats but didn't win".  drew brees and aaron rodgers come to mind.

 

really i gave you a lot of stats to chew on a few pages ago showing that cam and luck have almost identical efficiency statistics in similar situations.  actual data which contradicts your claim that luck undeniably plays better in pressure situations than cam and you completely ignored it.  why should i listen to anything you have to say?

 

now go on and post your "der he made the playoffs" rebuttal

[The NFL Shield At Midfield]

without our defense giving up three walk off scoring drives this season we're 10-6, by the way.  bears, falcons, and bucs games.

 

edit:

 

cam vs. luck in close game/pressure situations from a few pages back in case anyone missed it

 

 

from somethingawful

 

Final Margin 0-7
Luck 222-407, 54.5%, 7.0 YPA, 16/9 TD/Int, 80.6 QBR
Cam 138-251, 55.0%, 7.7 YPA, 08/6 TD/Int, 80.7 QBR

4TH QTR, +/-7 PTS
Luck 51-89, 57.3%, 7.7 YPA, 4/1 TD/Int, 92.3 QBR
Cam 36-59, 61.0%, 9.4 YPA, 2/1 TD/Int, 96.5 QBR

Behind by 1-8 Points
Luck 91-170, 53.5%, 7.7 YPA, 8/6 TD/Int, 80.0 QBR
Cam 79-142, 55.6%, 8.5 YPA, 6/3 TD/Int, 89.0 QBR

 

 

And this doesn't include his rushing numbers. 

 

 

[L-TownCat]

With a stingier Defense a more confident coach and special teams unit that is slightly better than atrocious Cam may look like the "great" QB, "ass hat" Fowler is talking about. That Debbie downer can chew on the damp crotch of my daily pair of boxers.

[DaveThePanther2008]

I am with you. Jackson and Shurmur were not my choice to lead Cam and this Offense into the next generation. Although, to be honest, I am a little concerned about Shula myself. I just didn't see any viable alternatives out there at this time.

You know. With luck seemingly on our side for once. It is funny how some things never change. We need an OC that can lead a new generation of Offense. But the timing was just a little off, as to folks still learning how to play fast.

I am not a fan of giving college guys their first NFL gig. But there are precious few NFL guys that know a whole lot about the new wave Offense. Kind of a catch 22. Keep Shula and hope we can learn how to ride the wave. Or hire a college guy and hope he can handle the pressure. With Rivera having basically no job security, I can see how he would want to go with Shula.

Oh, and it is nice to see that Rivera and Shula are down with this new Offensive charge. Practice quicker so you can play quicker. Quicker plays and calls to keep the game up tempo. Good to see them on board. Coaches can be stubborn, glad these guys are adaptable.

Anyway, let the games begin.

I didn't know a whole lot about Shula when he was at TB.  This forum really beat that horse pretty good and I formed my own opinion based on the facts everyone put out.  Between Dungy and a lack of a receiving corps. (even worse than our current situation) and a QB that had ONE good year.    I think he got a bum deal.  Alabama wasn't much better with those sanctions going on during his tenure.

 

He is 14 yrs (I believe) more experienced. He will have a candy sack full of running backs and a QB that is only getting better and he has worked with for now his 3rd season.  We have a solid OL. We have a future HOFer Smitty (write it down I said it) and a bunch of hungry WRs trying to prove they belong.  On top of that he does come from Blue Blood as far as NFL genes go.

 

One final point. Bill Billicheat was terrible in Cleveland and is now an HOF coach in NE.  Sometimes a change of scenery is just what the doctor ordered.

 

I think he is going to do extremely well.

[panthers55]

I am not sure what Lucks's success or lack of it had anything to do with why Cam should do better or not. Seems to me that Luck was not that great or the measuring stick by which Newton should be judged.   How about someone closer like Ryan in Atlanta.  In

16 games he led 7 4th quarter game winning drives.  Here are the stats so the apologists can make all the excuses and qualifiers they do whenever anyone takes Newton to task.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=RyanMa00

 

[FootballMaestro]

I am not sure what Lucks's success or lack of it had anything to do with why Cam should do better or not. Seems to me that Luck was not that great or the measuring stick by which Newton should be judged.   How about someone closer like Ryan in Atlanta.  In

16 games he led 7 4th quarter game winning drives.  Here are the stats so the apologists can make all the excuses and qualifiers they do whenever anyone takes Newton to task.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=RyanMa00

 

So you were comparing a QB in his second season, to one in his 5th?

 

Ahem. Maybe there was a reason why Cam was being compared to his contemporaries (along with the scrutiny of their teams, coaches, and defenses, contributing to each QB's team and personal success)???

 

Plus, as it's been discussed ad nauseum here. If the Panther defense doesn't blow the Atlanta (yeah we know about Cam's fumble), Chicago, and 2nd Tampa Game--for starters, the Panthers are 10-6, and we're not even having these discussions. That was just flat out awful defense, down the stretch by the Panthers. No other way to say it. SMH

 

If the Panthers continue to play as they did last year, and the year before (close games, or to that level), what they have is very fixable. The question is: Will the team, QB/offense, coach and defense be up to the task??

 

We'll see?

[panthers55]

So you were comparing a QB in his second season, to one in his 5th?

 

Ahem. Maybe there was a reason why Cam was being compared to his contemporaries (along with the scrutiny of their teams, coaches, and defenses, contributing to their team and personal success). 

 

SMH

I don't know that comparing Newton who is in his second season to Luck's rookie season is that much different than comparing Newton to Ryan. But given that Ryan and Newton play in the same division and face each other twice how they compare to eachother will have a direct effect in those contests and how their teams finish this year. That is the only type of comparison that matters. Funny you mention the difference in years in the league and failed to mention that Luck and Newton play in completely different offenses systems making comparisons limited at best. Or maybe since he would favorably compare to Luck but not Ryan in the fourth quarter you apologists have to selectively choose your arguments. Like how about if Cam doesn't fumble on 3rd on 1 the defene doesn't have to make a late stand. But lets blame the defense and ignore the elephant in the room which is that Cam had the game won if he had held onto the ball. Blame Smitty or Newton but if they don't throw a pick six the defense was good enough to win in Chicago. And if Newton makes the throw against Seattle we at least get to see if the defense is stout enough. Truth is many of the games you blame on the defense had critical offensive which unduly pressured thud defense. But again lets ignore the offensives problems and blame the defense and coaches which are easy targets.

[TheRed]

I love how if you question someone's criticism of Cam you're immediately labeled an "apologist".

[FootballMaestro]

I don't know that comparing Newton who is in his second season to Luck's rookie season is that much different than comparing Newton to Ryan. But given that Ryan and Newton play in the same division and face each other twice how they compare to eachother will have a direct effect in those contests and how their teams finish this year. That is the only type of comparison that matters. Funny you mention the difference in years in the league and failed to mention that Luck and Newton play in completely different offenses systems making comparisons limited at best. Or maybe since he would favorably compare to Luck but not Ryan in the fourth quarter you apologists have to selectively choose your arguments. Like how about if Cam doesn't fumble on 3rd on 1 the defene doesn't have to make a late stand. But lets blame the defense and ignore the elephant in the room which is that Cam had the game won if he had held onto the ball. Blame Smitty or Newton but if they don't throw a pick six the defense was good enough to win in Chicago. And if Newton makes the throw against Seattle we at least get to see if the defense is stout enough. Truth is many of the games you blame on the defense had critical offensive which unduly pressured thud defense. But again lets ignore the offensives problems and blame the defense and coaches which are easy targets.

 

I find it amazing, that some wants to blame that  fumble/loss on Cam, and not Ronnie's decision not to 'Go For It, along with the horrible defense that the Panthers played, repeatedly/again and again, down the stretch of that game. What's your fixation?

 

Cam's fumble was an accident. You can even argue, it was dislodged by one of his offense lineman, when they collided, if you watch the tape. It happens. So what?

 

However, Rivera's decision not to go for it on 4th down, and the horrendous defense the Panthers played in those circumstances (80 yd drive, less than 60 seconds, no time outs), was much worse, and involved thought, repetition and foresight. Cam's play, was boom boom, with not much room to operate, and it was over. 

 

I find people like you incredible.You're QB is not perfect. And he made mistakes. 'Really!?" 'Say it ain't so!?"

 

Nonetheless, if it wasn't for your QB, the Panthers wouldn't be in most of the games they're in during his tenure. Nonetheless, you think it's too much to ask, to give him the end of game defense that all other so called 'Game Winning QB's' benefit from. I guess the defense, didn't blow the Tampa Bay game either (under similar circumstances as Atlanta), huh? Do you actually watch other NFL games and teams? SMH

 

The bottom line is: Newton has deserved to win more games, than he lost for the Panthers during his career. 

[panthers55]

I love how if you question someone's criticism of Cam you're immediately labeled an "apologist".

Making excuses when the criticism is valid is making apologies. That makes you an apologist. 

[TheRed]

Making excuses when the criticism is valid is making apologies. That makes you an apologist.

So basically your argument is always valid but any logical counter argument is merely excuses? Okay.

It's good to know we have an all knowing and infallible individual such as yourself here to set us straight.

[panthers55]

I find it amazing, that some wants to blame that  fumble/loss on Cam, and the not Ronnie's decision not to 'Go For It, along with the horrible defense that the Panthers played, repeatedly/again and again, down the stretch of that game. What's your fixation?

 

Cam's fumble was an accident. You can even argue, it was dislodged by one of his offense lineman, when they collided, if you watch the tape. It happens. So what?

 

However, Rivera's decision not to go for it on 4th down, and the horrendous defense the Panthers played in those circumstances (80 yd drive, less than 60 seconds, no time outs), was much worse, and involved thought and foresight. Cam's play, was boom boom, with not much room to operate. 

 

I find people like you incredible.You're QB is not perfect. And he made mistakes. 'No; Ya say so'??

 

However, if it wasn't for your QB, the Panthers wouldn't be in most of the games they're in during his tenure. Nonetheless, you think it's too much to ask, to give him the end of game defense, that all other so called 'Game Winning QB's' benefit from. I guess the defense, didn't blow the Tampa Bay game either (under similar circumstances as Atlanta), huh? Do you actually watch other NFL games and teams? SMH

 

The bottom line is: Newton has deserved to win more games, than he lost for the Panthers during his career. 

Like usual in your rush to apologize for Newton you miss the whole point as usual.  The fact is that Newton fumbled away a first down that would have sealed the victory and made a decision about going for it on fourth or 1 or punting it away totally moot.  That had nothing to do with Rivera going for it or not going for in on fourth down.  And it had nothing to do with the defensive giving it away.  I would have gone for it on fourth down likely using Newton once again.  And the defense surely collapsed when they should have held. You seem to suffer from the "either or" syndrome here and the answer is both.  Newton blew it and the defense collapsed and we lost.  They both screwed up and no apologies are needed.  

 

What is ridiculous is that you throw every else under the bus and place Newton on a pedestal.  People like me can see his flaws and the defensive flaws and the coaching flaws and not feel a need to lump in all on one group and not spread it around so everyone gets their due share.

 

Like for example the Tampa game where the defense absolutely collapsed and Newton clearly wasn't the problem.  Or the number of bad calls that Rivera made over the course of the season that cost us possessions, points ,and some games.  No one is blameless or unworthy of criticism.  There was plenty of that for everyone.

 

Save the insinuations and personal attacks.  People like me just see Newton for who he is, which is a young quarterback learning and developing into his position..  He makes mistakes, has to learn to control the emotional part of the game, and has cost us some games in the process. So has the defense, so have the coaches.  People like you constantly make excuses for Cam while throwing the rest of the team and the coaches under the bus when there is blame for everyone..  People like me know that it takes a team to lose or win and everyone has to play together as a unit.  People like you seem to think that you can blame one aspect of the team while excusing others as if they don't work in concert.

[FootballMaestro]

Making excuses when the criticism is valid is making apologies. That makes you an apologist. 

 

I'm still trying to understand how you blame Cam for the Atlanta loss, when the Panthers would have never been in position to win the game with out Cam in the first place????

 

You act like the defense was carrying Cam the entire game, then he threw a couple of disastrous picks toward the end which cost the Panthers the game, which was the farthest thing from the truth. 

 

OK Cam fumbled. So what? 1) The Panthers had the lead, and still had a chance to go for it and didn't. 2) The defense couldn't hold a team going 80 yds, with sub 60 seconds, with no time outs (after a series of fluky play, that would have to be seen to be believed). 3) The Hail Mary with Nakamura. I'll leave at that. The less said, the better. How is any of that Cam's fault????

 

 I'm still shaking my head. What is wrong with you? Are you okay?

 

It's not a competition of who to blame on the Panthers. The reason why fans bring up the Defensive issues, is cause they're trying to illustrate, that if Cam experienced better fortune (i.e. defense and special teams in just a few games), he would have 9, 10-11 wins, and no one would be discussing the few mistakes he DID make in other games. They would be irrelevant. That's all.  

 

I find it amusing, that you can always single out Cam in this way. But rarely discuss Rivera, Special Teams, and the defense in the same manner. Go figure!!