A Cautionary Tale - Tampa Bay Opener

[shabazz]

Okay, in what way is Kuechly a better LB than David? Tackling? Instincts? Pass coverage? Pass rushing?

[Jeremy Igo]

Okay, in what way is Kuechly a better LB than David? Tackling? Instincts? Pass coverage? Pass rushing?

 

Yes.

[CRA]

Okay, in what way is Kuechly a better LB than David? Tackling? Instincts? Pass coverage? Pass rushing?

Luke is the best sideline to sideline LB in the NFL....instincts are out of this world. His ability to dissect a play, sniff it out and wreck shop are unique.

Pass rushing and coverage are two areas other LBs make ground on him. Id say in those two areas....even on our team Thomas Davis is better in coverage and rushing presently.

David is a beast in Tampa. Overall, Luke has he edge. Not a big one but you would have to IMO give it to Luke until proven otherwise. There are areas David is better....but Luke has him on more than he does Luke

[FootballMaestro]

True, Deangelo hasn't made any plays in preseason, but here are some inconvenient stats for all of you who are so ready to push him all the way down the depth chart:

 

• Stewart's 2013 YPC = 3.8 (43 carries)
• Tolbert's 2013 YPC = 3.6 (101 carries)
• Whittaker's YPC on Thurs night's amazing game that has everyone so excited = 3.96 (23 carries)
• Williams' 2013 YPC = 4.2 (201 carries)

 

So Williams, in addition to being the best Panthers RB ever, was our most productive back in our most recent season and even managed more YPC for that entire season than Fozzy did in his "breakout game." And let's not forget that Deangelo made one of the most explosive plays of the year in the passing game last season. If I'm coach, I keep him in the lineup until his regular season production dips.

 

Why didn't you bring up Whitaker's true/first "Break out game" where his YPC were much higher than Thurs (since we're using Preseason numbers)? That was the KC game.

 

Plus, we all know, D'Angelo's not consistent. He  gets most of his yards/big runs during select times, and games after sucking much beforehand. 

[SCP]

Another Bucs fan here.

I have read some of the early comments in this thread where this game isn't supposed to be close, but a blow out favoring Panthers. I understand your optimism after a 12-4 season, facing a 4-12 team and I myself have my team losing in this game. But I think those ones predicting a one sided game are in for a disappointment.

There is not as much a talent differential between the Bucs and Panthers.

Offense:

QB: Panthers. Easily. One is a play maker while the other is a game manager. The game manager, based on how people around him are performing, can sometimes come out with a better performance. But if Panthers D forces McCown to carry his team and Bucs D forces Newton to carry his, Panthers easily have the advantage.

O-line: Push. Both units have new players and have seemingly struggled during the preseason.

Offensive weapons: Buccaneers. RBs is a push as the disaster that was last year we discovered some talented backups in Mike James and Rainey to the star Martin. The double trouble may be old and beat up, but they still are lethal if their line can block for them. As far as receivers go, its not even close. Panthers have one proven receiver in Olsen vs two in Bucs (Jackson and Myers), one with upside in Benjamin vs two in Evans and Seferian-Jenkins.

Defense:

D-line: Panthers. This one is not as easy as one may think. Panthers have great DEs, rock solid interior linemen and over all a top 5 unit. Bucs have one elite player that belongs to JJ Watt, Geno Atkins category in Gerald McCoy. Michael Johnson, a new addition does not always generate sacks, but has been regarded a big positive in pass rushing by PFF in the past. Overall the Bucs have a respectable D-line unit.

LBs: Push. Yeah Kuechly, DPOY, I get it. But LaVonte David is as talented, if not more. Then you have some solid LBs in Davis and Foster on both teams, featuring in two of the best 4-3 LB units in the league.

Secondary: Buccaneers. They may have underperformed last year, but there is no denying the talent of Bucs' secondary. Now add in Verner and they field a respectable group. Panthers have Antoine Cason as ther starting CB.

Long story short I say there is a 60% chance Panthers win. Because I believe the defenses of both teams will pretty much neutralize running games and force QBs to carry their offense. Cam obviously will be better at it, despite shortage in offensive weapons. I believe the score will be like 20-13.

Yep. I am predicting like a 17-10 or 17-13 type game.

Luke all day.

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Matt Ryan wears braided belts.

[CRA]

Why didn't you bring up Whitaker's true/first "Break out game" where his YPC were much higher than Thurs (since we're using Preseason numbers)? That was the KC game.

Plus, we all know, D'Angelo's not consistent. He gets most of his yards/big runs during select times, and games after sucking much beforehand.

Yep, DeAngelo getting heavy reps means you are going 3 and out and putting your QB behind the chains......and them maybe at one point he will break one run.

a RB like Stewart means you sacrifice the odds for that one run but your QB stays in manageable scenarios and your offense isn't being imploded time and time again.

[the_philosopher]

Why didn't you bring up Whitaker's true/first "Break out game" where his YPC were much higher than Thurs (since we're using Preseason numbers)? That was the KC game.

 

Plus, we all know, D'Angelo's not consistent. He  gets most of his yards/big runs during select times, and games after sucking much beforehand. 

 

Because Fozzy was playing with and against all backups then. I was particularly impressed by his performance against the Steelers because he was productive against mostly starters, but was just pointing out that Williams was even better over the course of last season.

 

And I don't agree that Williams "sucked" last year for the majority of a game before hitting a big run that inflates his stats. He's consistently been a good (and often great) running back for us. It's crazy to me how easily you guys have forgotten that. Maybe he's at the end of his road now, but he wasn't last year. That's my point.

[Happy Panther]

http://www.bbs.tbaybucs.com/topic/23988-week-1-predict-the-score-carolina-at-tampa-bay-7-september-2014/

[CharlottePanther]

Yep. I am predicting like a 17-10 or 17-13 type game.

Luke all day.

--------------------------------------

Matt Ryan wears braided belts.

I love my team but I have to go with a Panthers loss. Lovie Smith has had Rivera's number both times when we played Chicago, the fact we still have no idea which QB is starting is also alarming to say the least. Yes Cam said he would play but is he even practicing yet? Whats the word on DA and his hand? Way too many question marks at QB for us now. Joe Webb right now is the only healthy QB on this roster.

We absloutley do not have the secondary to stop Vjax and Evans. Sure our pass rush is good but Hardy has a mild shoulder injury, CJ hasnt played all pre season.

Not only has Cam not been practicing but Olsen hasnt practiced in about a week either due to his son. This is going to be a very very sloppy game and a Panthers loss in my opinion.

If Cam is healthy and plays at a high level, I think we win. If Webb gets the start and lights it up, then we probably win, same with DA. But again, too many unknowns

[FootballMaestro]

Because Fozzy was playing with and against all backups then. I was particularly impressed by his performance against the Steelers because he was productive against mostly starters, but was just pointing out that Williams was even better over the course of last season.

 

And I don't agree that Williams "sucked" last year for the majority of a game before hitting a big run that inflates his stats. He's consistently been a good (and often great) running back for us. It's crazy to me how easily you guys have forgotten that. Maybe he's at the end of his road now, but he wasn't last year. That's my point.

 

OK, just wanted to see your logic on Fozzy. Fair enough.

 

And it's true. Stewart's been hurt most of the last two years, so the load has been on D'Angelo, and he's largely done nothing.

 

Sure, there were games, and times he played well. No doubt. But for the most part, the run games has been saved by Cam and Tolbert over and over again. Not D'Angelo.

 

This is why you hear many astute Panther fans always say "What Run Game (when the National media mentions it)", and/or "Cam can't be asked to carry the run games as in the past", etc..

 

Now both D'Angelo and Stewart were good in 2011 (no doubt helped by Newton passing for so many yards his first few games). But the running games has certainly been nothing to write home about the past two years. It's been very inconsistent and unreliable, outside of Tolbert.

 

 

[CRA]

Because Fozzy was playing with and against all backups then. I was particularly impressed by his performance against the Steelers because he was productive against mostly starters, but was just pointing out that Williams was even better over the course of last season.

And I don't agree that Williams "sucked" last year for the majority of a game before hitting a big run that inflates his stats. He's consistently been a good (and often great) running back for us. It's crazy to me how easily you guys have forgotten that. Maybe he's at the end of his road now, but he wasn't last year. That's my point.

I broke down his runs in 2012 how his overall ypc is deceiving in terms of how good he is...

And yes, it he is a proven inconsistent runner the last 2 seasons. Running to nowhere far too consistently which is brutal

[stirs]

Lovie Smith is a good coach.  He will get more out of that team than most expect.  That, his defensive prowess, a decent draft and lots of FA, Tampa heat, will make the game very scary.  As many ups as they had this offseason, we had the same amount of oops.

 

I call it a toss up at the moment.

 

Turnovers and special teams might make the difference

[panthers55]

You always have to game plan to not do what the other team is planning for you to do. So if we always are predictable and try to just out execute them then we won't go anywhere on the ground or in the air. I want us to pass when they expect run and run when they expect pass. If there is anyone who knows Lovie Smith and his defense it is Ron Rivera. As head coach he ought to be helping Shula as well as McDermott. Sure we need to run but you know they are going to load the box right out of the chute and bring pressure. It is going to be up to Cam to see it and for he and Shula to have game planned for it in order to exploit it. That likely means throwing high percentage safe passes early with the tight ends and mixing in screens and draws as well as standard plays. We need to be creative and need to take what the defense is giving us. I would like us to come out firing on all cylinders for once and move down the field with urgency instead of run twice up the middle and throw on third down into a blitz all day.

[shabazz]

Luke is the best sideline to sideline LB in the NFL....instincts are out of this world. His ability to dissect a play, sniff it out and wreck shop are unique.

Pass rushing and coverage are two areas other LBs make ground on him. Id say in those two areas....even on our team Thomas Davis is better in coverage and rushing presently.

David is a beast in Tampa. Overall, Luke has he edge. Not a big one but you would have to IMO give it to Luke until proven otherwise. There are areas David is better....but Luke has him on more than he does Luke

 

Thanks for a much better attempt at answering this than the guy that typed "yes". Let us both concede that neither of us have seen opposing LB as much as we have seen ours. Your opening statement is also applicable to David in my opinion. I will try to present some stats supporting my argument however that David is possiby as talented if not more.

 

In 2012 and 2013 Kuechly had 12 tackles for loss each year, where as David had 20 each. Also in terms of solo tackles David has always had Kuechly beat (112 to 93). I believe David is the better one when it comes to sniffing out a play and shutting it down for minimal gain. The way he plays, he is an enforcer and a head hunter. Both the guys are considered sure tacklers.

 

Now when it comes to pass coverage though, David is possibly one of the best LBs out there. I don't have to say much about pass rushing, David is one of the fastest there is at his position and a very efficient blitzer as indicated by PFF on number of pass rushing opportunities vs pressures generated. Overall I believe PFF had him ranked as the 5th best player in all NFL. Now Kuechly has some awards that David never did, I believe it has nothing to do with Luke being better, but only him being more popular and recognizable based on draft status.

 

Mark Barron is somehow considered one of the good/feared safety according to random football guys on NFL Network or the commentators during games. But actually he is mediocre, I guess he enjoys that fame due to his draft status as well. I personally think your LB crew including Luke are just supporting cast to the excellence that is your D-line. I also don't think Luke is the best player on your defense. I am sure some of you would agree with me on that. Yet he is a hot name and gets to enjoy the success of his whole defense.