Belichick & Collins vs Gettleman & Norman

[ncfan]

6 minutes ago, bull123 said:

Pats are best team in league...we are 2-5


Sent from my iPhone using CarolinaHuddle

Other than the QB spot they dont have near the injuries

[Zaximus]

Let's see if NE uses the money on people or just throws it on the bed and swims in it like Gettleman has, to this point.  

[Bartin]

3 minutes ago, ncfan said:

Does New England have a young guy that ended 2nd half of his season 2 years ago ranked graded out as the #1 ranked pass rusher on the otherside but was over shadowed by a big year from collins on the other side?

1. Collins isn't a pass rusher. He basically plays the same position as Thomas Davis

2. Elandon Roberts is a rookie they drafted this past year that has been really good so far when has played.

So they kind of do have a replacement already

[ncfan]

Just now, Zaximus said:

Let's see if NE uses the money on people or just throws it on the bed and swims in it like Gettleman has, to this point.  

Gettleman just threw it in the bed?  Lets see what he does with Star, KK, Turner, and Norwell especially after just locking up our 2 pillars Cam and Luke.  People still feel there is no such thing as a cap and want to throw out money ala Hurney until we're stuck with our hands tied and cant do anything as the ship sinks

[Bartin]

13 minutes ago, ncfan said:

Other than the QB spot they dont have near the injuries

Gronk missed 2 games. Their starting OT, Vollmer, hasn't played all year. Their starting RB, Dion Lewis, hasn't played all year. Their starting OG, Tre Jackson, hasn't played all year. They had to use a 3rd string QB for 2 games because of an injury to Garropolo.

That's just as if not more significant than Bradberry missing 3 games, Oher missing 3 games, McClain missing a game, Butler missing a few games, Cam missing 1 game and Stewart missing a couple games.

[ncfan]

1 minute ago, Bartin said:

 

2. Elandon Roberts is a rookie they drafted this past year that has been really good so far when has played.

So they kind of do have a replacement already

So they have a rookie that has looked good.  where have I heard this.  oh yeah a few post above.  Bene was the #1 graded coverage corner the last half of his rookie year then still had a solid year his sophomore year just being overshadowed by the big all-pro year Norman had.  You think Gettleman lived and shadowed around Bene watching everything he ate every recovery workout and could look into the future that Bene was lazy and came in out of shape and no where back to form?

[Zaximus]

9 minutes ago, ncfan said:

Gettleman just threw it in the bed?  Lets see what he does with Star, KK, Turner, and Norwell especially after just locking up our 2 pillars Cam and Luke.  People still feel there is no such thing as a cap and want to throw out money ala Hurney until we're stuck with our hands tied and cant do anything as the ship sinks

Yeah let's see.

[TheSpecialJuan]

Both were excellent big picture football moves. Both teams will be hurt short term but in the long run, everyone (except your QB) is replaceable.

[Bartin]

7 minutes ago, ncfan said:

So they have a rookie that has looked good.  where have I heard this.  oh yeah a few post above.  Bene was the #1 graded coverage corner the last half of his rookie year then still had a solid year his sophomore year just being overshadowed by the big all-pro year Norman had.  You think Gettleman lived and shadowed around Bene watching everything he ate every recovery workout and could look into the future that Bene was lazy and came in out of shape and no where back to form?

Well Bene wasn't even that good last year so he could have started there.

[ncfan]

23 minutes ago, Bartin said:

Well Bene wasn't even that good last year so he could have started there.

He wasnt that good?  not sure what you were watching.  Yes he wasnt near what Norman was having a all-pro year here.  Also how quickly you forget the conversations and debates around this time last year.  Bene, when finishing the season graded the top corner his rookie year.  He played outside not the nickle.  Bene last year was one of 2 NFL corners targeted at least 20 times and not given up a pass over 16 yards through the first 3 games, even from the nickle. The other Corner was Norman.

When we brought in Peanut he didnt have the athletic ability to play the nickle and the only way for us to have our top 3 guys in was to have Bene at the nickle.  Bene like Norman isnt the quickest guys out there which is hige playing the corner, thus the reason you see small quick guys in the nickle like Captain.  its not a coincedence 3 of our bigger dominating wins came when Peanut was out and Bene was outside, Washington, Dallas, and Atlanta (went down injured in last quarter when already up Huge

[Krovvy]

41 minutes ago, ncfan said:

???  Belechick got a 3rd round comp pick in return.  But so is Gettleman.

Actually Belichick got quite a bite more. Besides the compensation pick being a year earlier, which is always more valued, it will help replace the player lost more immediately. He also gets freedom when signing free agents in the next off-season since he won't have to worry about the possibility negating the compensation pick. An example of this would be from the Panther's this past off-season cutting Brandon Boykin to save the compensation pick.

[t96]

There's a few huge differences.

1. Norman was not our best defensive player. Not even a top 4 defensive player for us to be honest. Collins was literally their best defensive player last year and although he's struggled a bit with consistency this year he's still been extremely important to that defense which was already bad to begin with.

2. The salaries that each player was making... Belichick gained nothing by trading him now except the 3rd round comp pick a year earlier and guaranteed to get it without needing to sign less FAs than lost after the year. Is that worth losing your best defensive player for the rest of the year when you're trying to win a Super Bowl? To Belichick it was, that's why he made the move. Norman on the tag would've cost us $15M to the cap this year. By letting him go we can use that large amount of cap space to help sign key guys for the future, i.e. Star, KK, Norwell, and Trai.

Neither move was for the best in the short term. I'd hesitate to say that the Patriots move even helped them at all in the long term which is why I don't understand it. Dropping Norman's tag absolutely 100% helped us in the long term. Which one impacted the team more this year? Well we don't know on Collins yet since they haven't played without him but I honestly don't think Norman's loss had as big of an impact as people think. Bradberry has played close to as good as him this year before he went down. As shown against the Cardinals the main thing that was missing before was a lack of pass rush.

[t96]

45 minutes ago, TheSpecialJuan said:

Both were excellent big picture football moves. Both teams will be hurt short term but in the long run, everyone (except your QB) is replaceable.

I don't see how the Collins move was possibly "excellent" in the big picture. Maybe it will turn out to not be bad but there's no way this will be worth losing their best defensive player for the rest of this year. If they got a 1st or 2nd? Hell yes that would be a good big picture move. But to get the exact same thing they'd get keeping him but just a year earlier? Not a great move for the big picture. Not bad aside from this year, but not particularly great.

[Bartin]

31 minutes ago, ncfan said:

He wasnt that good?  not sure what you were watching.  Yes he wasnt near what Norman was having a all-pro year here.  Also how quickly you forget the conversations and debates around this time last year.  Bene, when finishing the season graded the top corner his rookie year.  He played outside not the nickle.  Bene last year was one of 2 NFL corners targeted at least 20 times and not given up a pass over 16 yards through the first 3 games, even from the nickle. The other Corner was Norman.

When we brought in Peanut he didnt have the athletic ability to play the nickle and the only way for us to have our top 3 guys in was to have Bene at the nickle.  Bene like Norman isnt the quickest guys out there which is hige playing the corner, thus the reason you see small quick guys in the nickle like Captain.  its not a coincedence 3 of our bigger dominating wins came when Peanut was out and Bene was outside, Washington, Dallas, and Atlanta (went down injured in last quarter when already up Huge

Well I watched the games and PFF, the same people that graded him as the best coverage CB the second half of his rookie year that you've cited 5 times in this thread, graded him as their 73rd best CB out of 119 with a grade of 52.7 which is bad.