Mike n Mike talk team building

[thefuzz]

This is always humorous.

 

[Jangler]

Yeah...I edited my post cuz I remembered Dave resigned Stew.

 

[Mr. Scot]

1 hour ago, TheRed said:

It wasn't Marty Hurney that witnessed his $100 million MVP franchise QB get hit again and again and again and again behind an over matched offensive line in the biggest game of his career, and the history of this franchise. Only to sit on his hands in the offseason convinced that we didn't need to address the OL.

Ironically if he had showed the kind of aggressive mindset toward the OL as he did in addressing our punter situation, perhaps we wouldn't have had to allow games to come down to one or two kicks for the kicker he decided to make one of the top paid in the league to shank horribly.

The topic came up because someone said we didn't want to make comparisons to Hurney's O-Lines.

And in reality, outside of Gross and Kalil (who were already here before Cam) Hurney didn't exactly do Cam any favors. His only draft picks on OL were Silatolu (as mentioned, over Cordy Glenn) and Lee Ziemba who was a bust. Heck, outside of Cam and maybe Kealoha Pilares if you're willing to be generous, that entire 2011 Draft was a bust.

And it's not like he went after any big name free agents either. Though admittedly he did manage to sign a couple of guys named Byron Bell and Nate Chandler.

Basically, if you want to try and create a notion that Hurney was somehow better at protecting Cam, you haven't got a lot to stand on.

[iamhubby1]

20 hours ago, AceBoogie said:

Eh not really, Golic is a former player and Greeny worked his way up as a journalists covering sports. Both are more than qualified to speak on team building.

 

I have been watching football for 50 years. I guess I am as qualified as Greeny.

 

I am also a former player. So I guess I am as qualified as Golic.

 

The point being. Everyone with a working brain is qualified to speak on team building.

 

 

I mean, let's be honest here. For years the vast majority of fans were complaining because we had no money to bring in any decent FAs. That the draft, and bandaid FAs were just not enough to build a proper team.

 

Then we went 15-1 and went to the SuperB owl. All of a sudden those same fans are saying we haven't done enough to build around our QB.

 

Am I the only one that sees the irony in this situation?

 

 

Very few people saw last year coming. Most thought we were AT LEAST a Playoff team.

 

To me it comes down to two things. Do you have the belief that circumstances have us perched to rebound nicely? Or do you let your frustration over last year cloud your enthusiasm for how things look going forward?

 

[Mr. Scot]

1 minute ago, iamhubby1 said:

Very few people saw last year coming. Most thought we were AT LEAST a Playoff team.

To me it comes down to two things. Do you have the belief that circumstances have us perched to rebound nicely? Or do you let your frustration over last year cloud your enthusiasm for how things look going forward?

Well, except for the people who predict doom and gloom every year, and then when we have a bad season say "See? I saw it coming!"

To listen to some, you'd think last year is the only season that counts and 2015 never happened (apparently the prior two years didn't either).

Solid as always, Hub.

[top dawg]

The 15-1 season was great, but arguably an outlier. Of course the most recent season is the most important one because it is the one that we have to build upon for the coming season. In any event, what Gettleman does this offseason will either buttress optimism, or curb enthusiasm. 

Gettleman must address offensive woes better than he has. Period! I have been saying for weeks that he is going to have to step up his game, particularly on the offensive side of the ball, and that's what he has to do. He's missed out on some opportunities, regardless of the narrative that Gettleminions want to push, so the time for excuses has run out. The status quo is not acceptable. I have faith in him, but I'm not giving him a pass for inadequately bolstering our O-line, or refusing to upgrade the TE position---things he could have done had he chosen to with the money and resources that he had.

 

[Krovvy]

14 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Jordan Gross at peace with retirement
 

The narrative that Gross was "pushed out" is pure bulls--t.

As to Bell and Chandler, they were both Hurney signings (undrafted).  Bell was already the starting right tackle when Gettleman got here. And Chandler's position switch was suggested by John Matsko and Ray Brown during 2013 OTAs (he had played offensive line and tight end in college before switching to defensive tackle).

After Gross retired, we had very little cap space due to Hurney's contracts.  They did try for a left tackle in free agency - Anthony Collins - who wound up signing with the Bucs for way more than he was worth and then playing so badly we were thanking God that we didn't overpay for him.  Collins was actually one of several tackles who got overpaid that offseason, and the majority proved not to be worth the money and wound up out of a job.

Thus, sans money to spend, we got Byron Bell moving left.

But in the meanwhile, we also added Trai Turner (3rd round) and Andrew Norwell (undrafted, yet better than 2nd Round Pick Silatolu) and signed a good stopgap in Michael Oher.

Hurney had some good OL picks over time (Gross, Kalil and Otah being the best though Otah didn't last long) but also spent some high picks on guys that barely - in some cases never - saw the field like Bruce Nelson and Rashad Butler.  In-between that, we wound up letting go of some guys that turned out to be way better with someone else coaching them (Evan Mathis, Joe Berger, Geoff Schwartz and Will Montgomery to name a few).

And of course, Amini over Cordy Glenn (oy).

There were certainly decent lines in there (03 and 08 in particular) but consistently good?  Not really, especially in the last few years here.  The clearest evidence of that being our win-loss records (like the one that got Hurney fired).

I'm glad Gross wasn't pushed out as the rumors stated.

As for Bell and Chandler being Hurney signings does not excuse having them both being starters at positions they never played. Bell being a right tackle, and Chandler being a defensive tackle, and at a stretch a guard as you've stated.

And the Panther's may not have had much cap room in 2014, but they did have enough to sign quite a few players. These players include Graham Gano, Ed Dickson, and adding almost an entire new secondary. Roman Harper, Thomas DeCoud, Antoine Cason, and James Dockery were all signed that offseason. The Panthers also were in need of an entire new receivers corps as the starters Smith, LaFell, and Ginn were let go. Jericho Cotchery, Jason Avant, and Tiquan Underwood were all signed. Of course all of this excludes the Greg Hardy fiasco that would have given the Panthers ample cap room.

Unfortunatley a lot of these players weren't worth keeping. Quite a few didn't make it through the season. Some you could argue were overpaid with Graham Gano, and Ed Dickson, maybe even Roman Harper.

If nothing was available in free agency, or in the draft, then a trade should have been made. The Panthers just this past season gave up a fourth round pick for a punter. In my opinion Gettleman should have pursued a tackle more aggressively in the draft, or should have found a viable trade. Leaving Bryon "but he's left handed" Bell as Cam's blindside protection with a defensive tackle on his right just wasn't a prudent move. Why invest so much into a franchise player to leave them to the wolves?

This past season shows that depth could have been added to the offensive line, but no moves were made. There was plenty of cap room, and several players in free agency that went on to do well with their new teams.

As for Hurney picks on offensive line, I think they speak for themselves. Quite a few quality players, even if the front office foolishly let some of them walk. Though I can't agree that a team's win loss record is a good indication of talent on an offensive line. For example, Dallas had an amazing offensive line last year, but couldn't win without a quarterback. The Panthers couldn't win without a Quarterback as well in 2010, and they won't win in 2017 if Cam gets injured from too many hits.

Let's hope the Panthers' offensive line in 2017 won't be as poor as 2014 or even this past years.

[iamhubby1]

46 minutes ago, TheRed said:

Stewart is probably not the right candidate for you to use to make the cap hell argument with.

Like it or not, the guy has actually been earning his money, his value to the team is obvious. I don't see us winning 15 games last year, or making it to the Super Bowl without Jonathan. Think back to that ridiculous run he broke off to start the playoff game against the Seahawks.

I like Dave, I want to see him succeed here. I think he has done many good things for us. But we unequivocally blew it in the 2016 offseason. I refuse to participate in this circle jerk about how we just couldn't do anything, aw shucks, we only won 6 games, there was just no way we could have prevented this. F*ck that noise. You want to be a champion, you have to act like one. Teams like the Patriots (like them or not) keep making it to the big games because they know you have to evolve each season. Know what I'm saying?

 

 

IMO, it comes down to whether or not you believe that Gman, and Rivera are doing everything in their power to improve this team?

 

Everyone is frustrated on how last year unfolded. Us fans who still see a bright future saw missed opportunities, and a calculated risk that did not go as planned. Those fans who are still frustrated see mistakes, and a poorly executed offseason.

 

We have over 17,000 members in this joint. No way in Hades we are not going to have a poo ton of varying opinions. Implying that those opinions contrary to your own are participating in a "Circle Jerk" is just in bad taste. And does not really show you in the best light.

 

IMO, we need to give Gman this offseason to really get a sense of who he is. He has never had money to play with. Let's see how he spends it before we condemn him completely. Or not. Fans were never known for their patience.

 

 

[arbnranger]

1 hour ago, TheRed said:

Stewart is probably not the right candidate for you to use to make the cap hell argument with.

Like it or not, the guy has actually been earning his money, his value 

I like Dave, I want to see him succeed here. I think he has done many good things for us. But we unequivocally blew it in the 2016 offseason. I refuse to participate in this circle jerk about how we just couldn't do anything, aw shucks, we only won 6 games, there was just no way we could have prevented this. F*ck that noise. You want to be a champion, you have to act like one. 

Yea, agree with you on a couple of points. 

Stew may not have the best YPC this year but IMO, he got about as many yards as you could get, considering all the circumstances.(line, injuries, gameplan, etc)

Most other backs would have averaged much lower. He is still a beast and well worth the market value. 

I'm a fan of Gman and I will say for sure we didn't do enough this past offseason. I'm an optimist, so I'm thinking Gman sees that he made some mistakes and will make changes accordingly. 

I think this season will be the tipping point for Gman, one way or the other. 

[grimesgoat]

1 hour ago, TheRed said:

Stewart is probably not the right candidate for you to use to make the cap hell argument with.

Like it or not, the guy has actually been earning his money, his value to the team is obvious. I don't see us winning 15 games last year, or making it to the Super Bowl without Jonathan. Think back to that ridiculous run he broke off to start the playoff game against the Seahawks.

I like Dave, I want to see him succeed here. I think he has done many good things for us. But we unequivocally blew it in the 2016 offseason. I refuse to participate in this circle jerk about how we just couldn't do anything, aw shucks, we only won 6 games, there was just no way we could have prevented this. F*ck that noise. You want to be a champion, you have to act like one. Teams like the Patriots (like them or not) keep making it to the big games because they know you have to evolve each season. Know what I'm saying?

I don't know what you are saying.

We were 17-2.  We had the highest scoring offense and a solid D.  We had a number of core players in key spots and the reigning MVP.  Why would anyone in their right mind think we would need to make big changes?  Just because Cam was sacked a couple of times in the Superb owl by the best D in the league?  Could we not tighten that up looking at film and scheme?  Is the only way to address that by getting different players?

Gettleman wasn't just sitting around:

• We re-signed Coleman.
• We replaced the huddle poster-boy for suck Harper with Boston.
• We extended Oher at a fair price because he was solid and could lock down the left tackle spot for a while.
• We re-signed CJ and saved tons of cap.
• We lost Jared Allen but drafter Butler.
• We replaced Norman with a second rounder.  This netted us an extra 2017 draft pick, allowed us to extend Oher, and added carry over money to re-sign other key players.
• KB would step in for Cotchery.
• Benewikere or our third rounder would step in for Tillman.
• Williams would step in for Remmers - making Remmers a solid backup.

As training camp opened, tell me where is the flaw in this plan?

[Mr. Scot]

15 minutes ago, Krovvy said:

I'm glad Gross wasn't pushed out as the rumors stated.

As for Bell and Chandler being Hurney signings does not excuse having them both being starters at positions they never played. Bell being a right tackle, and Chandler being a defensive tackle, and at a stretch a guard as you've stated.

And the Panther's may not have had much cap room in 2014, but they did have enough to sign quite a few players. These players include Graham Gano, Ed Dickson, and adding almost an entire new secondary. Roman Harper, Thomas DeCoud, Antoine Cason, and James Dockery were all signed that offseason. The Panthers also were in need of an entire new receivers corps as the starters Smith, LaFell, and Ginn were let go. Jericho Cotchery, Jason Avant, and Tiquan Underwood were all signed.

Unfortunatley a lot of these players weren't worth keeping. Quite a few didn't make it through the season. Some you could argue were overpaid with Graham Gano, and Ed Dickson, maybe even Roman Harper.

If nothing was available in free agency, or in the draft, then a trade should have been made. The Panthers just this past season gave up a fourth round pick for a punter. In my opinion Gettleman should have pursued a tackle more aggressively in the draft, or should have found a viable trade. Leaving Bryon "but he's left handed" Bell as Cam's blindside protection with a defensive tackle on his right just wasn't a prudent move. Why invest so much into a franchise player to leave them to the wolves?

This past season shows that depth could have been added to the offensive line, but no moves were made. There was plenty of cap room, and several players in free agency that went on to do well with their new teams.

As for Hurney picks on offensive line, I think they speak for themselves. Quite a few quality players, even if the front office foolishly let some of them walk. Though I can't agree that a team's win loss record is a good indication of talent on an offensive line. For example, Dallas had an amazing offensive line last year, but couldn't win without a quarterback. The Panthers couldn't win without a Quarterback as well in 2010, and they won't win in 2017 if Cam gets injured from too many hits.

Let's hope the Panthers' offensive line in 2017 won't be as poor as 2014 or even this past years.

Everybody we signed in 2014 was signed for peanuts. You're not getting a quality left tackle via free agency or trade for peanuts.

As to the draft, the past few tackle classes haven't really produced anyone I'd cover enough to give up the players we took with high picks.  Hurney's prior picks "speaking for themselves" is a huge reach.

On the line in general, Turner, Norwell and Oher were all solid additions that nobody seems to want to count. Ditto Daryl Williams.

Depth? Take a moment to go look at the depth charts of most teams in the league, then come back and tell me how many of them still would have been solid with the number of Injuries we had this season.

I can't believe people still run with this idea that every other team is two and three deep with pro bowlers except us. Reality is that depth is extremely difficult to build these days, especially on OL.

[TheRed]

1 hour ago, Mr. Scot said:

The topic came up because someone said we didn't want to make comparisons to Hurney's O-Lines.

And in reality, outside of Gross and Kalil (who were already here before Cam) Hurney didn't exactly do Cam any favors. His only draft picks on OL were Silatolu (as mentioned, over Cordy Glenn) and Lee Ziemba who was a bust. Heck, outside of Cam and maybe Kealoha Pilares if you're willing to be generous, that entire 2011 Draft was a bust.

And it's not like he went after any big name free agents either. Though admittedly he did manage to sign a couple of guys named Byron Bell and Nate Chandler.

Basically, if you want to try and create a notion that Hurney was somehow better at protecting Cam, you haven't got a lot to stand on.

Where did I remotely approach some sort of warped argument that Hurney is better or Gettleman is worse? Why would that even matter anyway? Does one being worse than the other make you feel better about 6-10 after a nearly undefeated season, and a Super Bowl appearance? It sure as hell doesn't make me feel better. Why do so many fans here cling to making bizarre excuses for medioctrity as a coping mechanism? That's the old Panthers. That's the Panthers that still haven't attained back to back winning seasons.

It's not about your ego, my ego, or the general managers ego, it's about improving the Carolina Panthers. We didn't do what we needed to in 2016. I do not personally believe that is even up for debate. We rolled the dice with or OL, and it backfired big time. There can be no excuses for 2017.

[TheRed]

19 minutes ago, iamhubby1 said:

 

 

IMO, it comes down to whether or not you believe that Gman, and Rivera are doing everything in their power to improve this team?

 

Everyone is frustrated on how last year unfolded. Us fans who still see a bright future saw missed opportunities, and a calculated risk that did not go as planned. Those fans who are still frustrated see mistakes, and a poorly executed offseason.

 

We have over 17,000 members in this joint. No way in Hades we are not going to have a poo ton of varying opinions. Implying that those opinions contrary to your own are participating in a "Circle Jerk" is just in bad taste. And does not really show you in the best light.

 

IMO, we need to give Gman this offseason to really get a sense of who he is. He has never had money to play with. Let's see how he spends it before we condemn him completely. Or not. Fans were never known for their patience.

 

 

I'm not here to hold your hand, and tell you it's going to be alright hubby. You're a man, you can stand on your own two feet.

We have had sound bytes on this forum of Gettleman saying various phrases for crying out loud. Yes, there is a contigent on this board that has a circle jerk every time an opposing source suggests perhaps Gettleman could have done a little more, or his approach needs a little fine tuning.

We sure as hell aren't going to get anywhere as a franchise with this mindset. If you take issue with me stating this, well, that's too bad.

[Krovvy]

1 hour ago, Mr. Scot said:

Everybody we signed in 2014 was signed for peanuts. You're not getting a quality left tackle via free agency or trade for peanuts.

As to the draft, the past few tackle classes haven't really produced anyone I'd cover enough to give up the players we took with high picks.  Hurney's prior picks "speaking for themselves" is a huge reach.

On the line in general, Turner, Norwell and Oher were all solid additions that nobody seems to want to count. Ditto Daryl Williams.

Depth? Take a moment to go look at the depth charts of most teams in the league, then come back and tell me how many of them still would have been solid with the number of Injuries we had this season.

I can't believe people still run with this idea that every other team is two and three deep with pro bowlers except us. Reality is that depth is extremely difficult to build these days, especially on OL.

Graham Gano, Ed Dickson, Roman Harper, and Jericho Cotchery were not quite peanuts. Even so if you add all the peanuts together it does amount to quite a bit. Even so, didn't the Panthers that year still carry around five million in cap space into the season? Not to mention the Greg Hardy fiasco that could have been averted, giving the Panthers plenty of cap room.

The drafts always seem to be poor at the time as it takes years to develop players. One player that many wanted the Panthers to draft was Morgan Moses. His rookie year quite a few posters would bring him up as an example of how there was no offensive tackle was worth selecting. However this past year he's turned it around and is doing quite well.

Gettleman's few picks and finds at offensive line are doing well for where they were found, but that doesn't mean the Panthers invested much into these players. A couple of low draft picks, and "put our faith in" players. Until he uses a high draft pick, or makes an Andy Lee like trade, or even just spends some of the Panthers rainy day money I wouldn't say the Panthers are doing everything they can to protect the face of the franchise.

As for depth, I mean depth. The Panthers had twenty million in cap room, and there were players worth signing. It's not unfathomable that the Panthers would try and sign or draft players to fill one of the biggest needs league wide. The Panthers offensive line was exposed to the entire world, I'm sure Dave was watching as well.