7th round pick, NFL minimum salary PK Harrison Butker

[Mr. Scot]

11 minutes ago, TN05 said:

Let’s see, he won us games against New England in New England, against the Giants, and multiple others this and last year as he has been one of the best kickers in the league.

How long is Butker’s longest field goal?

Funchess helped us win several games last year too. Shall we keep him?

I don't know how long Butker's longest field goal is, and frankly, I don't care.

Consistency is what matters when it comes to kickers. Gano is no longer consistent.

 

[Khyber53]

1 hour ago, Mr. Scot said:

Devin Funchess had lots of catches this year.

Captain Munnerlyn had some nice pass breakups too.

Dontari Poe had plays where he didn't get pushed around.

And hey, Ron Rivera actually coached seven winning games.

Shall we praise and keep all of these for the future because they did some things that were good?

Lemme give you some reasons:

Devin Funchess: He hit the bump that almost all good WRs go through, and we have to look at this season through the lens of Cam's shoulder injury and the possibility that could have been affecting game planning and play as early as week 1. Funchess also took a ton of crap from the fanbase this season and I think it really got to him, you never know he may have even been a person on this board. Why keep him for next year: If we can get him for a good rate, he can be very effective as the big receiver working alongside DJ and Samuel. 

Captain Munnerlyn: He did catch a lot of crap from the fanbase and he was targeted often in a few crucial games this year, getting burned by #1 receivers. He's a nickle, not a first rate DB, but rather than moving one of our starters to cover the #1 receiver when the guy went to the slot, our completely unprepared DC just kept throwing Munnerlyn in there. We've got to throw that into the mix. Munnerlyn, though, is a good tackler and is willing to get in there on run support. Why keep him: Maybe the answer to our question at FS is to transition Munnerlyn to that position where his experience and tenacity can be put to good use while he still has some speed left in those rather short legs.

Dontari Poe: Man, I don't have a lot to say here except sometimes when you drop big bucks on a big boy, he goes to the trough rather than the weight room. Still, he's better than Butler. Why keep him: Let me get back to you on that one.

Ron Rivera: Yeah, I just look out there at coaches waiting to be hired and see a vast wasteland... It's so bad that Arizona just hired a college coach who has an overall losing record at those ranks. It's so bad that the Jets just hired the ex-Miami coach and they KNOW how pathetic he has been after playing against him twice a season for what four years? Let Ron ride out his contract and see if he can right this ship. I still think that depends mightily on whether Cam's shoulder is good or bad.

Just offering some reasons, none of them are hills I'd be willing to die for.

[carpanfan96]

6 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Funchess helped us win several games last year too. Shall we keep him?

I don't know how long Butker's longest field goal is, and frankly, I don't care.

Consistency is what matters when it comes to kickers. Gano is no longer consistent.

 

Gonna play devils advocate

 

he's missed 3 FG's the last two seasons, 2 of those were over 50 yards. 

[Mr. Scot]

13 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

Lemme give you some reasons:

Devin Funchess: He hit the bump that almost all good WRs go through, and we have to look at this season through the lens of Cam's shoulder injury and the possibility that could have been affecting game planning and play as early as week 1. Funchess also took a ton of crap from the fanbase this season and I think it really got to him, you never know he may have even been a person on this board. Why keep him for next year: If we can get him for a good rate, he can be very effective as the big receiver working alongside DJ and Samuel. 

Captain Munnerlyn: He did catch a lot of crap from the fanbase and he was targeted often in a few crucial games this year, getting burned by #1 receivers. He's a nickle, not a first rate DB, but rather than moving one of our starters to cover the #1 receiver when the guy went to the slot, our completely unprepared DC just kept throwing Munnerlyn in there. We've got to throw that into the mix. Munnerlyn, though, is a good tackler and is willing to get in there on run support. Why keep him: Maybe the answer to our question at FS is to transition Munnerlyn to that position where his experience and tenacity can be put to good use while he still has some speed left in those rather short legs.

Dontari Poe: Man, I don't have a lot to say here except sometimes when you drop big bucks on a big boy, he goes to the trough rather than the weight room. Still, he's better than Butler. Why keep him: Let me get back to you on that one.

Ron Rivera: Yeah, I just look out there at coaches waiting to be hired and see a vast wasteland... It's so bad that Arizona just hired a college coach who has an overall losing record at those ranks. It's so bad that the Jets just hired the ex-Miami coach and they KNOW how pathetic he has been after playing against him twice a season for what four years? Let Ron ride out his contract and see if he can right this ship. I still think that depends mightily on whether Cam's shoulder is good or bad.

Just offering some reasons, none of them are hills I'd be willing to die for.

I could give you other examples too, but its not even so much the specific examples as it is the mindset.

"Hey, maybe this guy wasn't very good overall, but he did help us win that one time."

"Yeah, he played lousy for most of the game, but he did have that one really cool highlight."

"Well, at least he's good sometimes. Why don't we just focus on the positive and give him a chance?"

That kind of thinking is all well and good if you're coaching at the pee wee level.

At the NFL level though, it's a big part of the blueprint for how to build a losing team.

[Khyber53]

1 hour ago, Mr. Scot said:

I could give you other examples too, but its not even so much the specific examples as it is the mindset.

"Hey, maybe this guy wasn't very good overall, but he did help us win that one time."

"Yeah, he played lousy for most of the game, but he did have that one really cool highlight."

"Well, at least he's good sometimes. Why don't we just focus on the positive and give him a chance?"

That kind of thinking is all well and good if you're coaching at the pee wee level.

At the NFL level though, it's a big part of the blueprint for how to build a losing team.

Here's the deal, in the end: If we cut everyone who had some bad games for us this past season, we'd have CMC, Luke and Taylor Moton left on the team. Our coaching staff would be Matsko, two waterboys and the guy that carries the cleat cleaner thing out on timeouts. Heck, two thirds of the fanbase would have to be sent packing as well.

After the year we had, there are definitely some problem spots and some players that should see the door. Steering this thing back to the original topic, though, the keeping of either Gano or Butker back in the dawning days of the season is just crying over milk spilled long ago. The question now, and it won't be really answered until training camp, is can Gano heal enough to give us another one of those 95% kicking seasons. And if not, is there a chance that Butker's contract won't be extended by KC?

[MasterAwesome]

2 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Funchess helped us win several games last year too. Shall we keep him?

I don't know how long Butker's longest field goal is, and frankly, I don't care.

Consistency is what matters when it comes to kickers. Gano is no longer consistent.

 

Player A: 93.5% FGs made the last two years.

Player B: 89.9% FGs made the last two years.

I know you don’t value empirical data, but which player appears to be more consistent again? I refrained from naming them so we can all put away our biases, but I think you can probably guess which is which.

[thefuzz]

11 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

Here's the deal, in the end: If we cut everyone who had some bad games for us this past season, we'd have CMC, Luke and Taylor Moton left on the team. Our coaching staff would be Matsko, two waterboys and the guy that carries the cleat cleaner thing out on timeouts. Heck, two thirds of the fanbase would have to be sent packing as well.

After the year we had, there are definitely some problem spots and some players that should see the door. Steering this thing back to the original topic, though, the keeping of either Gano or Butker back in the dawning days of the season is just crying over milk spilled long ago. The question now, and it won't be really answered until training camp, is can Gano heal enough to give us another one of those 95% kicking seasons. And if not, is there a chance that Butker's contract won't be extended by KC?

What you are saying is that this is water under the bridge and we should just smile and look forward to next season.

What we are saying is that this fanbase needs to open their eyes as to just how badly mismanaged this team has been, and that ownership has decided that's good enough for him.

This particular instance is a look into the minds of Marty and Ron.  Many fans could see what the smarter move was, and once again this coaching staff and front office combo made the wrong call both short term, and long term.

No one is crying, we are frustrated that this front office and coaching staff is still making decisions that are questionable at best, and downright stupid at worst.

 

[Mr. Scot]

23 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

Here's the deal, in the end: If we cut everyone who had some bad games for us this past season, we'd have CMC, Luke and Taylor Moton left on the team. Our coaching staff would be Matsko, two waterboys and the guy that carries the cleat cleaner thing out on timeouts. Heck, two thirds of the fanbase would have to be sent packing as well.

After the year we had, there are definitely some problem spots and some players that should see the door. Steering this thing back to the original topic, though, the keeping of either Gano or Butker back in the dawning days of the season is just crying over milk spilled long ago. The question now, and it won't be really answered until training camp, is can Gano heal enough to give us another one of those 95% kicking seasons. And if not, is there a chance that Butker's contract won't be extended by KC?

Good as Butker's been for the Chiefs, wouldn't hold my breath on that.

Here's the thing though. You're talking as if we're forced to accept one extreme or the other (cut nobody or cut everybody). Those are at the only options.

You keep the people who are performing well overall and cut the ones that are becoming a liability.

Right now, Gano falls into category#2.

[Toomers]

13 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

Player A: 93.5% FGs made the last two years.

Player B: 89.9% FGs made the last two years.

I know you don’t value empirical data, but which player appears to be more consistent again? I refrained from naming them so we can all put away our biases, but I think you can probably guess which is which.

Now let’s include XPs, and let’s compare what we paid for a PK to what we could have. Use all relevant empirical data. Not just what numbers support the narrative. 

[Mr. Scot]

18 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

Player A: 93.5% FGs made the last two years.

Player B: 89.9% FGs made the last two years.

I know you don’t value empirical data, but which player appears to be more consistent again? I refrained from naming them so we can all put away our biases, but I think you can probably guess which is which.

Which one is young and has a far cheaper contract vs the one who's older and starting to fade?

You're trying again to narrow in on one thing without any context while ignoring other factors that are part of the big picture.

Again, thats how you build losing teams.

[thefuzz]

6 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

Player A: 93.5% FGs made the last two years.

Player B: 89.9% FGs made the last two years.

I know you don’t value empirical data, but which player appears to be more consistent again? I refrained from naming them so we can all put away our biases, but I think you can probably guess which is which.

 

Gano has attempted 43 FG's over the past two season missed 3 of em.

Butker has attempted 69 FG's and missed 7. 

Gano has attempted 70 extra points and missed 6 of em.  

Butker has attempted 97 extra points and missed 4.

Extra points mean a lot too...and are much easier.

However, rather than cherry pick the last two seasons, where Gano has a HUGE outlier, lets go off of career % and cap hit.

Gano's career % is 82.1% and 85.5% with Carolina.  His extra point % is 95.3 (with many years as the old gimme range).  He cost us 3.4M against the cap last year.

Butkers career % is 89.9%.  His extra point % is 95.9 (with all of his kicks as the longer version) And he would have cost us 485k.

 

Soooo, almost an equal kicker, with Butker being more accurate for his career.  1 of these is younger, cheaper, and signed long term.  The other is older, very expensive, only signed to 1 more year, and coming off an injury to his plant foot.  (Also missed games this year with yet another injury).

This was an easy call back then, and we boofed it.  Then we doubled down by signing Gano to yet another overpriced long term contract that we can't easily get out of, and he's injured yet again.

Whew this one's stinky boys.

 

[Mr. Scot]

2 minutes ago, thefuzz said:

 

Gano has attempted 43 FG's over the past two season missed 3 of em.

Butker has attempted 69 FG's and missed 7. 

Gano has attempted 70 extra points and missed 6 of em.  

Butker has attempted 97 extra points and missed 4.

Extra points mean a lot too...and are much easier.

However, rather than cherry pick the last two seasons, where Gano has a HUGE outlier, lets go off of career % and cap hit.

Gano's career % is 82.1% and 85.5% with Carolina.  His extra point % is 95.3 (with many years as the old gimme range).  He cost us 3.4M against the cap last year.

Butkers career % is 89.9%.  His extra point % is 95.9 (with all of his kicks as the longer version) And he would have cost us 485k.

 

Soooo, almost an equal kicker, with Butker being more accurate for his career.  1 of these is younger, cheaper, and signed long term.  The other is older, very expensive, only signed to 1 more year, and coming off an injury to his plant foot.  (Also missed games this year with yet another injury).

This was an easy call back then, and we boofed it.  Then we doubled down by signing Gano to yet another overpriced long term contract that we can't easily get out of, and he's injured yet again.

Whew this one's stinky boys.

 

This is how you look at the whole picture rather than trying to cherry pick things to fit a narrative.

[Khyber53]

5 minutes ago, thefuzz said:

 

Gano has attempted 43 FG's over the past two season missed 3 of em.

Butker has attempted 69 FG's and missed 7. 

Gano has attempted 70 extra points and missed 6 of em.  

Butker has attempted 97 extra points and missed 4.

Extra points mean a lot too...and are much easier.

However, rather than cherry pick the last two seasons, where Gano has a HUGE outlier, lets go off of career % and cap hit.

Gano's career % is 82.1% and 85.5% with Carolina.  His extra point % is 95.3 (with many years as the old gimme range).  He cost us 3.4M against the cap last year.

Butkers career % is 89.9%.  His extra point % is 95.9 (with all of his kicks as the longer version) And he would have cost us 485k.

 

Soooo, almost an equal kicker, with Butker being more accurate for his career.  1 of these is younger, cheaper, and signed long term.  The other is older, very expensive, only signed to 1 more year, and coming off an injury to his plant foot.  (Also missed games this year with yet another injury).

This was an easy call back then, and we boofed it.  Then we doubled down by signing Gano to yet another overpriced long term contract that we can't easily get out of, and he's injured yet again.

Whew this one's stinky boys.

 

The operative phrase is "would have." Hindsight is 20/20 and depends on some factors that we can't say would have been equal had the two swapped places. 

You also miss out on the kick off factor, which is a big deal. Rivera (and most coaches in the NFL) prefer kickoffs to result in a touchback. In that area, Gano's leg was consistently better than Butker's and that bore out over the season. Carolina had 76.92% touchbacks on kickoffs (3rd best in the league) while KC had 62.1 % (16th in the league). In preseason Butker wasn't as effective kicking it deep and Gano had just come off of a year with an 85% rate and best in the league. 

That's not a small factor and it has historically been a big deal for the Panthers, even going back as far as the days of Rhys Lloyd holding down a roster spot just to do that one thing (and back when it still brought them out to the 20... an even bigger bonus).

Still the Butker bus has moved on. Right now, in real life, we're going in to the off season with Gano as our best option because he has a decent history and because there's really not a lot of good options out there. And if you think we're going to drop another draft pick on a kicker -- well, I won't rule that out completely either. 

But man, let Butker go. It's getting to be like a bad break-up. She's moved on, she's got her own life now, she's really seeing someone else, come on, let it go, look ahead and quit looking behind.

 

[thefuzz]

1 minute ago, Khyber53 said:

The operative phrase is "would have." Hindsight is 20/20 and depends on some factors that we can't say would have been equal had the two swapped places. 

You also miss out on the kick off factor, which is a big deal. Rivera (and most coaches in the NFL) prefer kickoffs to result in a touchback. In that area, Gano's leg was consistently better than Butker's and that bore out over the season. Carolina had 76.92% touchbacks on kickoffs (3rd best in the league) while KC had 62.1 % (16th in the league). In preseason Butker wasn't as effective kicking it deep and Gano had just come off of a year with an 85% rate and best in the league. 

That's not a small factor and it has historically been a big deal for the Panthers, even going back as far as the days of Rhys Lloyd holding down a roster spot just to do that one thing (and back when it still brought them out to the 20... an even bigger bonus).

Still the Butker bus has moved on. Right now, in real life, we're going in to the off season with Gano as our best option because he has a decent history and because there's really not a lot of good options out there. And if you think we're going to drop another draft pick on a kicker -- well, I won't rule that out completely either. 

But man, let Butker go. It's getting to be like a bad break-up. She's moved on, she's got her own life now, she's really seeing someone else, come on, let it go, look ahead and quit looking behind.

 

It's a chicken poo way to coach if you need a kicker that has to put it though the end zone in order to be successful.  That means no fumbles, no recoveries, no tackles inside the 10 or 15....etc...it's Ron being stubborn and scared.  Top 4 touchback teams in the NFL? 

Wash, MIA, Jets, Carolina. Wow.

 

As to the letting Butker go....man, that ain't it.  It's trying to point out to the fanbase that still thinks that Ron and Marty are qualified, that nothing has changed.  This isn't Marty 2.0, it's just Marty again, and with some job security. 

This is a disaster, and the team is at a pretty damn big crossroads.  Ron and Marty are the ones calling the shots, and that sucks.