Someone else thinks Allen keeps the job

[rippadonn]

Sit Cam like they did Luck. Franchise him next year and see if rehab worked. It would really suck to have him bust your ass in the playoffs and some guys are in win now.

Allen is a great backup. Without the team around him the oline playing well and this defense it wouldn't be pretty though. What if he didn't have McCaffrey?

[LinvilleGorge]

2 minutes ago, t96 said:

You don’t understand how the CBA works do you?

Yes, as well as any reasonably educated fan can.

I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying. The bottom line is that IF WE WANT KYLE ALLEN AS OUR STARTING QB THEN ULTIMATELY HE HAS THE LEVERAGE. He doesn't have to play. He can hold out. If that were to happen, what do we do? 

1. Pay up. 

2. Trade him because we're not willing to pay up.

3. Cut off our nose to spite our own face and leave him sitting at home while neither using him as a player nor taking advantage of his trade value.

If he's going to be our starter and we move on from Cam (which we will if Allen is going to be our starter) there is literally not a snowball's chance in hell that Kyle Allen plays never year under an ERFA tender. Zero. Nada. Why? Because he'll have the leverage.

[LinvilleGorge]

5 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

See above, I don’t think he can get a new contract even if the team wants to give him one next year.  He doesn’t have the accrued seasons.

He can sit out all he wants, the team still can’t give it to him.

 

If that's the case, then I retract. It honestly could be. ERFA contract info is tough to find. High value ERFAs are pretty damn rare. It takes some pretty special circumstances (like those we currently find ourselves in) for it to happen.

[AU-panther]

1 minute ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Yes, as well as any reasonably educated fan can.

I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying. The bottom line is that IF WE WANT KYLE ALLEN AS OUR STARTING QB THEN ULTIMATELY HE HAS THE LEVERAGE. He doesn't have to play. He can hold out. If that were to happen, what do we do? 

1. Pay up. 

2. Trade him because we're not willing to pay up.

3. Cut off our nose to spite our own face and leave him sitting at home while neither using him as a player nor taking advantage of his trade value.

If he's going to be our starter and we move on from Cam (which we will if Allen is going to be our starter) there is literally not a snowball's chance in hell that Kyle Allen plays never year under an ERFA tender. Zero. Nada. Why? Because he'll have the leverage.

The way I understand it:

He can not get a new contract next year. Doesn’t matter if he sits out.  If he sits out he won’t accrue a season. The team is not allowed to give him a new contract even if they want to.

If it was that easy to get a new contract every rookie who played well their first year would sit out the second year.  There is a reason they don’t, they can’t get a new contract.

 

[LinvilleGorge]

5 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

The way I understand it:

He can not get a new contract next year. Doesn’t matter if he sits out.  If he sits out he won’t accrue a season. The team is not allowed to give him a new contract even if they want to.

If it was that easy to get a new contract every rookie who played well their first year would sit out the second year.  There is a reason they don’t, they can’t get a new contract.

 

I know there are stipulations for drafted guys on multi-year contracts for when they're eligible to re-sign, I'm just not sure how it works for ERFA types who are almost always on one year near NFL minimum type deals and a quick Google search is providing no clarification.

I was assuming they were treated similarly to a RFA, except they were actually licked to the team instead of another team being able to sign them away with appropriate draft pick compensation. If not, that's a really raw deal for ERFAs, but high value ERFAs are such a rarity that there's really not gonna be anyone fighting for them at the CBA bargaining table so it very well could be the case.

[stratocatter]

16 minutes ago, rippadonn said:

Sit Cam like they did Luck. Franchise him next year and see if rehab worked. It would really suck to have him bust your ass in the playoffs and some guys are in win now.

Allen is a great backup. Without the team around him the oline playing well and this defense it wouldn't be pretty though. What if he didn't have McCaffrey?

I like the idea of tagging him vs paying a new long term deal but he is under contract next year. You'd be tagging 2021. I think.

It works even better I think. If Allen plays out this year as a winner, you can bench/stash him next year with his value sky high and his cost very low. At the same time you have Cam in a contract year. Build his value up too. You are not gonna come out of that a loser.

[LinvilleGorge]

4 minutes ago, GreensboroPirate said:

If a middling cornerback like Mike Hilton had the leverage to hold out, of course a potential franchise QB is going to.

 

 

Report: Mike Hilton won’t sign ERFA tender, wants new deal with Steelers

Jeremy Fowler of ESPN.com reports that cornerback Mike Hilton has no plans to sign the $645,000 tender extended by the team. He can’t negotiate with any other teams as exclusive rights free agents are bound to their teams once tendered, but he can negotiate with the Steelers about new terms.

It looks like Hilton ended up caving, but like you said, he's a middling CB. It looks like Villanueva on the other hand signed a 4 year/$24M contract when he played hardball with the Steelers as a ERFA. Just shows that starting OTs have a lot more leverage than middling CBs... and starting QBs have a lot more leverage than anyone else in the NFL.

[Mr. Scot]

4 minutes ago, GreensboroPirate said:

If a middling cornerback like Mike Hilton had the leverage to hold out, of course a potential franchise QB is going to.

Report: Mike Hilton won’t sign ERFA tender, wants new deal with Steelers

Jeremy Fowler of ESPN.com reports that cornerback Mike Hilton has no plans to sign the $645,000 tender extended by the team. He can’t negotiate with any other teams as exclusive rights free agents are bound to their teams once tendered, but he can negotiate with the Steelers about new terms.

You might wanna look up how that story ended.

[t96]

12 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Yes, as well as any reasonably educated fan can.

I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying. The bottom line is that IF WE WANT KYLE ALLEN AS OUR STARTING QB THEN ULTIMATELY HE HAS THE LEVERAGE. He doesn't have to play. He can hold out. If that were to happen, what do we do? 

1. Pay up. 

2. Trade him because we're not willing to pay up.

3. Cut off our nose to spite our own face and leave him sitting at home while neither using him as a player nor taking advantage of his trade value.

If he's going to be our starter and we move on from Cam (which we will if Allen is going to be our starter) there is literally not a snowball's chance in hell that Kyle Allen plays never year under an ERFA tender. Zero. Nada. Why? Because he'll have the leverage.

You must not understand leverage.

We’ve been winning games with defense and McCaffrey and just drafted Grier who we are still high on for the future. 

Allen needs to accrue 2 more full seasons after this year before he sheds ERFA status. There is zero chance if we play hardball (as we should and will because it’s how the CBA is set up to give teams that right) that Allen would sit out. That wouldn’t accrue a season, it would just push the 2 ERFA years back further and he wouldn’t be playing. That would be the dumbest decision of any player in the history of pro sports to try to win that battle as he has zero leverage.

Allen has no other choice but to play for us. Holding out only hurts him, it is not at all like Bell (who was also hurt by holding out in the end). We have multiple options, including Cam still, and Grier and even veteran free agent or next year’s draft. 

It’s one thing if Allen was out here looking like Mahomes last year dropping 50 TDS and 5000 yards and being the only reason we’ve won a game. But that hasn’t happened and won’t happen this year because he’ll never have a chance to be in a position to do that even if he was good enough (which at this point, he is not anyways).

[LinvilleGorge]

1 minute ago, t96 said:

You must not understand leverage.

We’ve been winning games with defense and McCaffrey and just drafted Grier who we are still high on for the future. 

Allen needs to accrue 2 more full seasons after this year before he sheds ERFA status. There is zero chance if we play hardball (as we should and will because it’s how the CBA is set up to give teams that right) that Allen would sit out. That wouldn’t accrue a season, it would just push the 2 ERFA years back further and he wouldn’t be playing. That would be the dumbest decision of any player in the history of pro sports to try to win that battle as he has zero leverage.

Allen has no other choice but to play for us. Holding out only hurts him, it is not at all like Bell (who was also hurt by holding out in the end). We have multiple options, including Cam still, and Grier and even veteran free agent or next year’s draft. 

It’s one thing if Allen was out here looking like Mahomes last year dropping 50 TDS and 5000 yards and being the only reason we’ve won a game. But that hasn’t happened and won’t happen this year because he’ll never have a chance to be in a position to do that even if he was good enough (which at this point, he is not anyways).

I think someone doesn't understand leverage alright, particularly when it comes to starting QBs in the NFL.

If we decide to move forward with Allen as the starter, we will part ways with Cam. Boom. All leverage is immediately in Allen's court. IF we decide to do this, we're insane if we don't sign Allen to an extension FIRST.

If Allen continues to play well and would have other teams willing to pay him as a starter, why would he be willing to play for peanuts? He would absolutely have the leverage in this situation, the leverage being his playing services. Damn, you'd make a terrible agent.

[AU-panther]

8 minutes ago, GreensboroPirate said:

There was a similar situation to Kyle Allen with Mike Holton.

The person who is saying he's unable to get a new contract under the CBA is wrong.

Report: Mike Hilton won’t sign ERFA tender, wants new deal with Steelers

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/03/20/report-mike-hilton-wont-sign-erfa-tender-wants-new-deal-with-steelers/

The situations aren’t similar.  Everyone is focused on him being an ERFA.  The issue is he doesn’t have the accrued seasons.  Hilton did. 
 

According to the article I linked an undrafted player can not get a negotiated deal until they have 2 accrued seasons.  For drafted players it is 3 seasons. Holding out is pointless until they have the accrued seasons.  The team isn’t allowed to give them a long term deal even if they want to.

[Mr. Scot]

4 minutes ago, GreensboroPirate said:

The bottom line is, we're going to have to pay Kyle Allen 20 million plus next year, or he won't be playing for us.

Okay, this is just absolutely moronic.

[t96]

9 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

If Allen continues to play well and would have other teams willing to pay him as a starter, why would he be willing to play for peanuts? He would absolutely have the leverage in this situation, the leverage being his playing services. Damn, you'd make a terrible agent.

Because he has literally no other choice. He has to play for us on the ERFA contract or he doesn’t have a career at all. End of story.

[LinvilleGorge]

4 minutes ago, t96 said:

Because he has literally no other choice. He has to play for us on the ERFA contract or he doesn’t have a career at all. End of story.

Failure to understand leverage confirmed. Either that or just unbelievably hard headed. 

You really think the Panthers are going to want Allen as a starter then when he says no thanks to playing for say $700k, they're just going to punt on having him as their starting QB AND punt on having him as a valuable trade asset just to puff their chest out and stick it to him (while also sticking it to themselves)? That would be insanely idiotic. If these events come to transpire, pay the man or trade the man. Period.

No one plays hardball better than the Steelers and a decent starting OT out-hardballed them in this same situation just a couple of years ago. Starting QBs have a helluva lot more leverage than starting OTs.