Tyler Larsen vs Matt Paradis

[1of10Charnatives]

19 minutes ago, onmyown said:

It all comes down to competence. When you’re spending bi bucks on extending players like Turner and signing players like Paradis and Kalil these need to be solid signings.

Granted these are later signings and I will say that during the Cam early years they did absolutely nothing to protect him.

And we can debate investments now vs. then but I think we can all agree on one simple questions and that is...do the Panthers even know how to invest in the offensive line? Do they understand how to protect their QB?

People have been saying they’ve already ignored it all along well I simply argue they how no fuging clue how to build an oline which is much worse. We need new people making these decisions.

Yeah I'm with you. I'll say this, while it's important to do your homework, drafting is an inexact science. To some degree it's always a bit of a crapshoot, which means that if strengthening an area of your team is important to you, you will on average need to invest more draft capital than not to shore it up. The method I took in approaching the question of offensive line supports the premise that during Cam's tenure they have failed to invest even decently in the offensive line, instead leaving him to scramble behind a neglected line.

The fact that the line has been subpar isn't bad luck based on the degree they've invested in it, it's entirely predictable. Oher's concussion situation was bad luck, but he at least gave you quality production while you had him. Kalil was a disaster in every sense of the word and Paradis looks like a bust so far. The following players who are either later round draft picks or UDFA have started significant numbers of games for us during Cam's career:

Daryl Williams

Nate Chandler

Andrew Norwell

Greg Van Roten

Tyler Larsen

Garry Williams

Geoff Hangartner

Byron Bell

Mike Remmers

Chris Clark

Cam's rookie season his oline was built around a first round pick multi pro bowl left tackle, a 2nd round pick multi pro bowl center, and a veteran 3rd round pick left guard. Gross, Kalil and Wharton. As these players wound down their careers and departed, commensurate draft capital was not spent to replace them, to say nothing of upgrading. The guys listed above only even got significant starting time because of this dearth of drafted talent. One or two parlayed that chance into something good for themselves, most are names we'd like to forget. 

By contrast the team drafted a linebacker in the first round when there was not even an immediate need for one, a defensive tackle in the first round when we had two very solid starters. Ron's defense had to stay stocked, even if that meant Cam was put behind an increasingly patch work offensive line consisting of throwing less than prized players in and hoping for the best. A running qb who's body is betraying him as he turns 30 under this circumstances is really hardly surprising, so in a way, one could very well put forward the argument that Cam being injured should not be an excuse for Marty and Ron, because they cannot claim to have adequately invested in protecting him to prevent it.

 

[Khyber53]

On 11/19/2019 at 12:01 PM, mc52beast said:

Paradis was supposed to be one of Hurney’s greatest signings, everyone said Elway was an idiot for letting him go. Sitting him will make Hurney look even more expendable.

I was one of those people. Wasn't making the opinion based upon Paradis' performance, but more so on Elway's complete lack of ability to assess talent (please see rapid degradation of Broncos since he took over). I guess I was wrong on this one, but honestly, a QB is probably the best judge of whether a Center can perform or not.

I was wrong. Really wrong on this one. Paradis has been a flat tire on that line.

[DeAngelo Beason]

On 11/19/2019 at 12:09 PM, Tbe said:

Let me get this straight. The O line was a focus this past off season. The two big free agent signings for the O line have been beyond terrible. 
 

That GM seat is getting warm.

In fairness, we were all applauding the decisions around here for the most part.

[TheRed]

I thought Paradis was a gamble but one we had to make, only other option was a rookie or some other teams scraps. Let's dispense with any revisionist history and remember he was the best C available. Kalil went on his retirement tour only to unretire before the season. Truthfully this fiasco may be a sobering reality some of us are going to have to settle with. The FA market for OL is not very good, average guys are getting big bucks. If we are going to shore up our OL it is in all likelihood going to have to be through the draft. To be clear I'm in no way giving Hurney a pass. If Ron goes we will likely just clean house.

[Mr. Scot]

30 minutes ago, DeAngelo Beason said:

In fairness, we were all applauding the decisions around here for the most part.

Somebody on here made an argument based on that. It was basically that you couldn't call anyone a bad signing or a bad draft pick if you thought it was a good idea at the time.

How stupid is that?

The vast majority of people think most new players are "a good idea at the time". Even the ones who have questions will say they hope it works out.

But we're just fans. We don't get paid to make those decisions. The people who do suffer consequences when they make too many of the wrong ones...

...and they should.

To excuse a professional making poor choices because "they seemed like a good idea at the time" is incredibly dumb.

[onmyown]

I remember when we signed Paradis I did not like it at all. I stated it was a stupid move because big men do not heal well from injuries like that and teams don’t let young players like that go unless it’s for reasons like that. I quoted and even agreed with Elway when he hinted at it...I think I racked up about 25 shits for those posts.
 

Not looking for kudos for hindsight but I absolutely HATE big contracts after an injury for anyone. Then you add the fact it’s a 6 foot 5 300 lb guy and I hate it even more. Big oline man do not heal fast and rarely heal completely. I hated the Paradis signing and I hated the Williams signing. Both back from injury.

Granted I wasn’t pissed at the Kalil signing but I think that was desperation for a LT...but still proves my point as Kalil was also coming off an injury. Big men just don’t heal well.

[DeAngelo Beason]

20 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Somebody on here made an argument based on that. It was basically that you couldn't call anyone a bad signing or a bad draft pick if you thought it was a good idea at the time.

How stupid is that?

The vast majority of people think most new players are "a good idea at the time". Even the ones who have questions will say they hope it works out.

But we're just fans. We don't get paid to make those decisions. The people who do suffer consequences when they make too many of the wrong ones...

...and they should.

To excuse a professional making poor choices because "they seemed like a good idea at the time" is incredibly dumb.

All I'm saying is everyone around here has a very big mouth about everything... most of the armchair coaches and GMs, loudmouth brats, and crybabies around here all piss and moan instantly about things they disagree with.  Most agreed with the decisions, so they should either acknowledge that it's not so easy to judge talent and shut their mouths about everything else they complain about, or eat their crow.

[DeAngelo Beason]

33 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Somebody on here made an argument based on that. It was basically that you couldn't call anyone a bad signing or a bad draft pick if you thought it was a good idea at the time.

How stupid is that?

The vast majority of people think most new players are "a good idea at the time". Even the ones who have questions will say they hope it works out.

But we're just fans. We don't get paid to make those decisions. The people who do suffer consequences when they make too many of the wrong ones...

...and they should.

To excuse a professional making poor choices because "they seemed like a good idea at the time" is incredibly dumb.

Case in point, no one here could ever argue signing Tom Brady would be a bad decision.  No one on the planet earth could argue it.  If he came in here and sucked, would our GM be a "poor talent evaluator"???  No.  People just want to bitch about certain members of the organization under any circumstance.

[Mr. Scot]

Side note just because somebody else reminded me of it...

How the heck did our coaching staff go into this season firmly believing that Darryl Williams was the best option at left tackle?

That alone ought to be enough justification to get somebody fired.

[Mr. Scot]

8 minutes ago, DeAngelo Beason said:

Case in point, no one here could ever argue signing Tom Brady would be a bad decision.  No one on the planet earth could argue it.  If he came in here and sucked, would our GM be a "poor talent evaluator"???  No.  People just want to bitch about certain members of the organization under any circumstance.

Actually it could be, because talent's not all there is to it.

If you went strictly by talent, Matt Paradis has talent. He's just not well recovered from an injury.

Greg Olsen has talent, and still enough to contribute, but there's the age factor. Is he still what he used to be? How much longer can he keep going?

And then there's things like system fit, contract, attitude, longevity and various other factors.

It's never as simple as "oh, he's a good player we should get him" but that's generally as far as most people go when looking at a potential acquisition.

I would agree that it's kind of silly to try and act like you said one thing when you actually said another. I've certainly been wrong about players. We all have.

That said, us being wrong about players doesn't mean it's okay for a coach and GM to be wrong about players. It's their job to be right.

[Icege]

Draft Tyler Biadasz, Nick Harris, or Creed Humphrey and let them compete to start at LG. Cut Paradis after the 2020 - 2021 season to save over $8M towards the 2021 - 2022 cap and kick 'em inside to center.

Though tb100, if it was Nick Harris, I'd prefer to keep him at LG. Biadasz or Humphrey tho? Lemme get that center of the future :3

[DeAngelo Beason]

10 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Actually it could be, because talent's not all there is to it.

If you went strictly by talent, Matt Paradis has talent. He's just not well recovered from an injury.

Greg Olsen has talent, and still enough to contribute, but there's the age factor. Is he still what he used to be? How much longer can he keep going?

And then there's things like system fit, contract, attitude, longevity and various other factors.

It's never as simple as "oh, he's a good player we should get him" but that's generally as far as most people go when looking at a potential acquisition.

I would agree that it's kind of silly to try and act like you said one thing when you actually said another. I've certainly been wrong about players. We all have.

That said, us being wrong about players doesn't mean it's okay for a coach and GM to be wrong about players. It's their job to be right.

I think it's normal for a coach or GM to be wrong about players... on occasion.  

Simply discarding talent as being a small factor when evaluating players takes all the responsibility for performance OFF of the player and coach/system.  When Donte Jackson inevitably drives the fans of this team insane and they want his head on a platter, people will blame Hurney, even though that pick appeared to be an outstanding selection at the time, and seems to have remained a good one until recently. People pissed and moaned about Gerald McCoy for a few weeks, and now they love him.  Hell, he even took less money to play for us!  That seems like some damn good GM work to me. 

This is the very problem with being an armchair GM.  We critique these decisions hastily without recognizing the simple truth - 99.9999% of human beings (GMs included) would acquire these same players if they got them on cap friendly contracts.  Hurney killed it in the offseason by picking up talented, coveted players that teams were competing over on good contracts, and the players have underperformed due to a combination of their own inability and poor coaching.  When those players come out and play like sh*t and are constantly out of position, it become the GM's fault somehow.  Is it partially?  Maybe.  Is it more likely that coaching, which has direct, tangible consequences on how a player performs, is the real culprit?  Yes.

Name one QB who would play better in a system where receivers have the worst separation in the NFL?  You can't.  Would signing a supremely talented QB on a great contract be a "bad call" if there were no way any QB could succeed in the situation due to coaching and scheme?  Of course not.

There are endless examples and scenarios I could bring up, but I think my point is made.  The default answer of "fire this guy, fire that guy" is so exhausting around here.

 

 

[My Goodness My Guinness]

1 hour ago, DeAngelo Beason said:

In fairness, we were all applauding the decisions around here for the most part.

You are right. This may have been the most applauded off-season in recent memory. I even gave Hurney his due. 

But look at us now. This team has holes everywhere (literally in run defense). I really want to blame Hurney for this but the talent seems to be there. I think the coaching staff is the primary cause for the lack of performance. 

[Mr. Scot]

1 minute ago, DeAngelo Beason said:

I think it's normal for a coach or GM to be wrong about players... on occasion.  

Simply discarding talent as being a small factor when evaluating players takes all the responsibility for performance OFF of the player and coach/system.  When Donte Jackson inevitably drives the fans of this team insane and they want his head on a platter, people will blame Hurney, even though that pick appeared to be an outstanding selection at the time, and seems to have remained a good one until recently. People pissed and moaned about Gerald McCoy for a few weeks, and now they love him.  Hell, he even took less money to play for us!  That seems like some damn good GM work to me. 

This is the very problem with being an armchair GM.  We critique these decisions hastily without recognizing the simple truth - 99.9999% of human beings (GMs included) would acquire these same players if they got them on cap friendly contracts.  Hurney killed it in the offseason by picking up talented, coveted players that teams were competing over on good contracts, and the players have underperformed due to a combination of their own inability and poor coaching.  When those players come out and play like sh*t and are constantly out of position, it become the GM's fault somehow.  Is it partially?  Maybe.  Is it more likely that coaching, which has direct, tangible consequences on how a player performs, is the real culprit?  Yes.

Name one QB who would play better in a system where receivers have the worst separation in the NFL?  You can't.  Would signing a supremely talented QB on a great contract be a "bad call" if there were no way any QB could succeed in the situation due to coaching and scheme?  Of course not.

There are endless examples and scenarios I could bring up, but I think my point is made.  The default answer of "fire this guy, fire that guy" is so exhausting around here.

Flip that around though.

I've said before that it's relatively easy to take a look at a player and see how good they are right now. Unfortunately, that's not all there is to it.

You also have to try and predict how well they'll go from being a college student to a paid professional making millions. You have to wonder about the influences that affect them. And even if those things are positive, how long can they stay good? Plus what about injuries? Can anyone really predict how much wear and tear a particular body can take?

Being a professional coach / GM is an incredibly difficult job. You're tasked with doing some things that are darn near impossible to do.

But that's the job.

And as it is with pretty much any other job, there are people who are good at it and there are people who are not.

The ones who are not don't get to keep their jobs using the excuse that it's difficult.

It's harsh, unkind and unfair oh, but that's how it is. You make millions if you succeed, and sometimes even if you don't. That's a big reason why you take on something that's impossible.