Vernon Butler Should Be Resigned

[rippadonn]

That's why if one of these rare body types is available you get them. Butler and KK have been teammates and are all that are left of our high draft pick DTs, must keep. Add other guys through the draft and free agency.

6'5" 300+ guys are not a plenty. You need lineman. People talking about run defense aren't also accounting for the injuries in the middle. McCoy wasn't supposed to play so many snaps. Injuries, starting with KK destroyed that unit.

[Carl Spackler]

Absolutely not 

[45catfan]

I would much rather have a healthy KK, low end FA like Love (not Love though, but similar) and draft two DTs this April.  This make much more sense to me.  Why? The two DTs can develop together and in a couple of years let KK with his monster contract walk.  Re-signing Butler to me is a long-term holdover and any holdovers outside of a few core guys I really don't feel like are part of the plans.  By year three, I think Rhule wants his stamp alone on like 90% of the 53 man roster.  

[SetfreexX]

I dunno why people ID the DL as the only one's at fault in run defense...run defense is a group effort, you got three down DL vs a base 5 man OL, and when they bring in 2TE"s the OLB's have got to also anchor. 

Coaching, players, scheme, all share some blame, along with injuries piling up over the course of the season. Also a lot of it wasn't all 3-4 being gashed like some here would have you believe. 

[rippadonn]

It's much harder to fill all the holes if you keep on making more.

[DeAngelo Beason]

If last year was a sign of him finally settling in and realizing some of his potential he could be poised to break out.  Can't hurt if the price is right.

[SetfreexX]

On Butler, if reasonable you keep good young players, he didn't earn the 5th year options ''value'' but I don't see a reason not to offer an reasonable extension. Short is likely gone after this year, he's owed 20.8M in 2021 (but as a cut would save 10M -- Dead money would be 10.9M) <<< would be the last year of his current deal. 

You don't want to hedge the future of the DL on KK, FA, and hoping two draft picks work out, going to be an interesting time once next week gets here. 

[45catfan]

Just now, rippadonn said:

It's much harder to fill all the holes if you keep on making more.

Year one of a rebuild will have a lot of holes and no, not all of them can be adequately filled in a single season, thus, why it's a rebuild.  Year one is also where you break the team down to a core foundation and begin to build.  I don't see Butler as a cornerstone of this rebuild.  He much more valuable to us with a 3rd or 4th round comp pick in 2021.  Yes, you bet he's going to be seeking that type of money.

[MHS831]

25 minutes ago, 45catfan said:

In a rebuild, everything is an option.  The dude was absent for all but one year, the 'money' year and will use those stats to lure some sucker team into a big payday.  I also remember the reason he got so pissed in the Colts game is a guard put his fat a$$ on roller skates backing him up about seven yards beyond the line of scrimmage and then planting him into the turf.

 

I hear what you are saying, 45, but I would caution you not to jump to the assumption that he worked hard because this was a contract year--last year, he could have worked hard for the 5th year extension for first rounders, and he did not.  Maybe that was a wake up call, but I wonder if he did not get a double dose of RR--the rookie curse led to a place in his dog house.  He was in on less than a third of the snaps in years 1-3, but in year 4, he got in on 40% and outplayed the starters.  Rivera was fired midseason, and Butler played more.

I wonder if the DL culture was not toxic.  KK,  Poe,  McCoy--all showed signs of having a lack of motivation.  When Butler flipped off the Colt fan, I thought, "That is tacky--he is gone." But if it was a result of frustration--knowing that you were outplaying the highly-paid veterans getting more time--I get it. 

Sam Mills III was their coach.  Washington was their coordinator.  I am guessing that they did not do a good job motivating the players and getting the most out of them--  Rhule is a motivator.  

You might be right, but if he demonstrated what he could do when motivated by money, what could he become when motivated by Rhule and his coaches?

[45catfan]

3 minutes ago, SetfreexX said:

On Butler, if reasonable you keep good young players, he didn't earn the 5th year options ''value'' but I don't see a reason not to offer an reasonable extension. Short is likely gone after this year, he's owed 20.8M in 2021 (but as a cut would save 10M -- Dead money would be 10.9M) <<< would be the last year of his current deal. 

You don't want to hedge the future of the DL on KK, FA, and hoping two draft picks work out, going to be an interesting time once next week gets here. 

That's exactly what I want.  You don't want to sign a bloated contract to a guy that finally shows up in a contract year either. Why is everyone assuming he's going to sign a team-friendly contract?  Wishful thinking? With players starting to retire earlier and earlier *Luke*, the urgency to make the big bucks as early as possible is paramount.  

So this whole notion of signing a team-friendly deal, especially on the second contract, flies in the face of the League trend.  Make your money and get out as healthy as possible.

[MHS831]

I do not see Butler staying, and I do not see paying him more than $5-6m. 

I think some team will offer a bit more.   6 sacks in 40% of the snaps is marketable.

[SetfreexX]

5 minutes ago, 45catfan said:

That's exactly what I want.  You don't want to sign a bloated contract to a guy that finally shows up in a contract year either. Why is everyone assuming he's going to sign a team-friendly contract?  Wishful thinking? With players starting to retire earlier and earlier *Luke*, the urgency to make the big bucks as early as possible is paramount.  

So this whole notion of signing a team-friendly deal, especially on the second contract, flies in the face of the League trend.  Make your money and get out as healthy as possible.

I didn't say ''team friendly'' I said reasonable. Giving Butler a reasonable 2-3 year deal goes along with re-tooling, but KK, FA, and 2 picks leads to absolutely NO DEPTH. 

Even IF we select a Brown or Kinalw, we're not tanking, look at the moves the team is making, it all points to Cam at QB, you can rebuild and compete at the same time. I can't see butler getting more than 5-6 M annually, there just isn't enough out there about him for the open market. That is a 1/4 of what we pay KK, and signs and the dead money falling off would lead me to believe we move on from KK after this year when we can save 10M. 

[45catfan]

3 minutes ago, MHS831 said:

I hear what you are saying, 45, but I would caution you not to jump to the assumption that he worked hard because this was a contract year--last year, he could have worked hard for the 5th year extension for first rounders, and he did not.  Maybe that was a wake up call, but I wonder if he did not get a double dose of RR--the rookie curse led to a place in his dog house.  He was in on less than a third of the snaps in years 1-3, but in year 4, he got in on 40% and outplayed the starters.  Rivera was fired midseason, and Butler played more.

I wonder if the DL culture was not toxic.  KK,  Poe,  McCoy--all showed signs of having a lack of motivation.  When Butler flipped off the Colt fan, I thought, "That is tacky--he is gone." But if it was a result of frustration--knowing that you were outplaying the highly-paid veterans getting more time--I get it. 

Sam Mills III was their coach.  Washington was their coordinator.  I am guessing that they did not do a good job motivating the players and getting the most out of them--  Rhule is a motivator.  

You might be right, but if he demonstrated what he could do when motivated by money, what could he become when motivated by Rhule and his coaches?

I attribute his outlier stats to two things: Putting effort on tape while padding stats, for one.  Why would he quit or show less effort when it's his wallet he's ultimately looking out for?  If anyone thinks for one second that Butler wasn't extremely aware of his future going into season, regardless of how the team did, then you are being dishonest.  Secondly, the switch to the 3-4.  With all the edge of pocket pressure this formation creates, the QB moves up into the pocket and sacks are more readily available to NTs than 4-3 DTs.

[SetfreexX]

1 minute ago, 45catfan said:

I attribute his outlier stats to two things: Putting effort on tape while padding stats, for one.  Why would he quit or show less effort when it's his wallet he's ultimately looking out for?  If anyone thinks for one second that Butler wasn't extremely aware of his future going into season, regardless of how the team did, then you are being dishonest.  Secondly, the switch to the 3-4.  With all the edge of pocket pressure this formation creates, the QB moves up into the pocket and sacks are more readily available to NTs than 4-3 DTs.

Meh, I don't know, I have seen Rivera stifle young legit talent for years, by playing vets past their time as far as snap % 

• Silatolu over Norwell
• Florence over Norman 
• Addision & Irvin while we feature Burns at Gunner
• Davis over Shaq
• Smith & Funchess over Moore & Samuel
• Stewart over CMC
• Star, and KK, then add in Poe, and GMC over Butler

I can't claim to ''know'' anything, but we all saw as fans, the better performance of these young guys once injury, or a guy moving on cast them into the line-up, so while I'm not naive enough to say it wasn't a financial motivator at play, I also am not foolish enough to know RR held young players back and favored veterans as he held on in my opinion to an ''old school'' mentality regarding snap%. 

I think the 5th year option for Butler was 1) production, but you can't produce w/o snaps, and 2) cap cost, that is a lot of cap, and I think the team saw the situation this off-season and hedged the bet that they could re-sign him for less than the option. Now he may choose to move on but in that scenario you don't commit yourself to that money. 

I'm not against FA, or drafting DT's, I think most are simply saying he's not going to command top tier, and probably not even middle tier on the market. Even still it remains to be seen, as team with a ton of cap may make a large bid, I just have a hard time seeing it.