Sam Darnold's "Style of Ball"

[LinvilleGorge]

3 minutes ago, CRA said:

actual reports are often just team pr and propaganda though. 

kinda like their draft confidential.  It is super edited to present like a master plan that all worked to perfection.  It leaves out all the other discussions.  Guys they wanted instead of who they got etc.  Routine disagreement.  All the stuff they wouldn't want you to hear.

 

Reports are gospel when you desperately want to believe them.

Of course the team is going to spin it that Darnold was their guy all along but actions speak louder than words and their actions showed they had several options they preferred over Darnold.

 

[Fox007]

19 hours ago, frankw said:

Well he went from pedestrian to a hall of fame career which isn't exactly all that common  <snip>

I got you but you have to consider the situation too. The Chargers had fantastic rosters back then with LT being one of the best backs  and they put up good records for many years straight.

Nothing else that gets said is going to counter the Jets being one of the worst ran teams ever with some of the least talent in the NFL.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Fox007

[Mr. Scot]

I'll let you guys argue with Albert Breer.

A while back, Breer told the story from both the Panthers and the Jets perspective. Breer is one of the best football writers out there and he's got no reason to try and spin anything positive for the Panthers.

Here's the full story from the Panthers side.

WHY THE PANTHERS MADE THEIR MOVE

In last week’s GamePlan, we gave you the A-to-Z on the Sam Darnold trade from the Jets’ perspective. So in the interest of equal time, I thought it was important to give you the same sort of look at the deal from the other side.

And really, there is one place where the stories match up perfectly: Both started with an important new hire coming from the NFC West on Jan. 14. That’s right, only a few hours separated the Jets’ striking a deal to make Robert Saleh their head coach, and the Panthers’ tabbing Seattle exec Scott Fitterer to be their new general manager. So that’s where Carolina’s quarterback pursuit began.

• The Panthers’ big swing for Matthew Stafford—an offer that included the eighth pick, a fifth-rounder and Teddy Bridgewater—fell short. From there, Fitterer and coach Matt Rhule started to reset at the quarterback position. Deshaun Watson was the biggest fish in the pond, but through January and February (before news broke of his legal situation), Texans GM Nick Caserio hadn’t shown, to any team, an appetite for even discussing a trade, telling them some variation of “You can ask me about anyone but the quarterback.”

• Darnold’s name first came up in February meetings, along with other potentially available quarterbacks, as the team worked through its offseason plan at all positions. Both Fitterer and Rhule had interesting background on Darnold—since Fitterer interviewed for the Jets’ GM job in the spring of 2019 and the Jets had made a run at poaching Rhule from Baylor a few months before that. The Jets had Rhule meet with Darnold, and it struck Rhule how Darnold seemed to have as good a handle of what it took to win as anyone, with all his questions centered on culture and team-building, rather than X’s-and-O’s. For his part, Fitterer remembered feedback from Jets owner Christopher Johnson, president Hymie Elhai and coach Adam Gase, and how each thought of Darnold as a person.

• Fitterer also had his own evaluation from Darnold’s time at USC, having written up the former first-team All-Pac 12 quarterback as an even-keeled guy beloved in the Trojans’ program, who consistently rose to the occasion when the stakes were high, and a very good athlete capable of making throws to every level of the field. Rhule and Fitterer’s subsequent look at Darnold’s tape showed flashes of what everyone saw in him at USC, where he could get outside the pocket and rip it to wherever he wanted.

• The initial phone call to the Jets was … interesting. Fitterer and Rhule called from director of player personnel Pat Stewart’s phone, since Stewart was closest with New York GM Joe Douglas. Douglas answered in a sort of ditzy voice—“Stu-ert?”—and Fitterer and Rhule were caught off-guard. Stewart wasn’t. It was an inside joke referencing the Stuart character on Saturday Night Live’s Californians skit. After the initial awkwardness, Douglas told the Panthers’ crew that he needed to get through the pro days for the top quarterback prospects in the draft and get medicals for all of them, but to stay in touch. And through natural conversation in the weeks to come, the Jets and Panthers did.

• Since the Jets and Panthers were among the teams to send full crews to the big quarterback pro days, Fitterer, Rhule and Douglas found themselves in the same place at the same time a bunch. But for a while, there wasn’t a ton to talk about. In fact, at Trey Lance’s March 12 pro day in Fargo, there wasn’t much communication between GMs, other than a quick hello.

• That changed on March 26 in Provo, Utah. That morning, Fitterer was standing next to 49ers assistant GM Adam Peters when Carolina PR chief Bruce Speight texted him that San Francisco had made a massive move up the board to land the third pick from Miami. Fitterer flashed the text to Peters, who flashed a smile back at him. (The Panthers had previously kicked around the idea of dealing up, but decided fairly early on that the price would be prohibitive for where they were in building the team.) As BYU QB Zach Wilson finished throwing, Fitterer found Douglas, asked about Darnold, and they agreed to talk during the week to follow, with both teams sending sizable groups to Columbus for Justin Fields’s Ohio State pro day.

• The Jets and Panthers talked again on March 29, the night before Fields was to throw, then lingered afterward in Ohio State’s field house to continue the conversation. By that Friday, April 2, both sides felt like a deal was close. They talked again on Saturday, paused on Easter morning, with more texts back-and-forth late on that Sunday afternoon. And on Monday morning, the final hurdles were being cleared.

• For the Panthers, based on how their draft board sets up and their needs, it was important to hold onto their slotted picks in the first (No. 8), second (No. 39) and third (No. 73) rounds. So the compromise, with the Jets asking for “a second-rounder plus,” was to have the two come in 2022. And initially, the concept Carolina was working off was to have two later 2021 picks as part of the deal, but the sides couldn’t quite make the terms work under those parameters. So Carolina moved the sixth-rounder it was offering this year down (Carolina has three sixth-rounders and gave the Jets the last one), and the 2021 fifth-rounder they were offering up to a fourth-rounder and into next year. That leaves the Panthers with seven picks in this year’s draft, which gives them a shot to fill needs and potentially move some picks to 2022 to replace those they just dealt away.

• The relationship between the Panthers and Teddy Bridgewater was already strained (trade rumors will do that), but Carolina’s doing its best to manage the situation now. Bridgewater has permission to seek a trade, and Rhule has left the door open to having Bridgewater back to compete with Darnold for the job. One important nuance here: $10 million of his $17 million base salary for 2021 is fully guaranteed, so there’s a ceiling for how big a pay cut Bridgewater would be willing to take to help Carolina facilitate a trade.

• Acquiring Darnold gives the Panthers a lot more flexibility with the eighth pick—but it does not preclude them from taking a quarterback. The 49ers’ deal certainly sparked the last set of talks between the Jets and Panthers on Darnold. All Fitterer and Rhule had to do was start to count the quarterback-needy teams in front of them to know the chance one they valued would fall to them had dwindled. And yet, if the right one gets to them, they’d likely still pounce. This just allows Rhule and Fitterer to be true to the board, with the ability to fill corner and tackle needs (and not press the QB need) there, and good players at those positions expected to be available when Carolina’s on the clock.

And tucked in there is the Panthers’ all-in approach to getting the quarterback spot right.

At first, it was an aggression to look for an upgrade in Stafford, even though Bridgewater was, for the most part, fine last year. In the middle, it was turning over every rock, from Watson to Darnold. In the end, it could mean overstocking the position a little, and if you look at Fitterer’s history it’s not hard to figure where he’d have gotten that idea.

Fitterer worked in Seattle for 20 years, was there for the duration of the Matt Hasselbeck era, and then saw how his boss, John Schneider, kept taking swings at quarterbacks. Seattle had Hasselbeck back for a year. The Seahawks dealt for Charlie Whitehurst and they signed Tarvaris Jackson. And then they inked Matt Flynn to relatively pricey deal in 2012, with Schneider having been a part of drafting Flynn in Green Bay in 2008.

At that point, most figured the Seahawks were done for that offseason at quarterback. But Schneider didn’t let his pride get in the way of his draft board—and he didn’t hesitate to take an intriguing, undersized QB prospect out of Wisconsin in the middle of the third round. That prospect, Russell Wilson, beat Flynn out to start in camp, and the rest is history.

History, clearly, that Fitterer is carrying with him.

Breer's discussion from the Jets side also confirms a couple of things. One, the Panthers were not the only team interested in Darnold (several other teams had been in contact) but they were the only one that struck around long enough to make it happen rather than going in a different direction.

It also verifies that if this were a normal year, the trade probably would have happened sooner, and potentially with someone else. Another team had a first round pick as part of their offer, but same as with us, the Jets wanted to wait until they'd done all their evaluations.

So again, if you guys wanna believe your own narratives (I know CRA has Tepper in the room next to him and all) over someone with actual inside access, feel free.

It makes you look delusional of course but hey, that's your right.

[LinvilleGorge]

Where did he say anything other than Darnold was a fallback plan. The only delusion here is arguing that Darnold was our guy all along while we made a much bigger trade offer for Stafford. C'mon man. You're hard headed but you're not stupid.

[Mr. Scot]

19 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Where did he say anything other than Darnold was a fallback plan. The only delusion here is arguing that Darnold was our guy all along while we made a much bigger trade offer for Stafford. C'mon man. You're hard headed but you're not stupid.

You didn't actually read it, did you?

If you did, and that's what you came away with, you didn't understand it.

(or just don't want to admit it)

Edited May 28, 2021 by Mr. Scot

[glenwo2]

2 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

They looked there because both Rhule and Fitterer were familiar with him. Rhule met him when he interviewed for the Jets job and Fitterer had scouted him for Seattle.

Rhule also mentioned that during a film session with the defensive coaches they were watching the Jets and Phil Snow was impressed by Darnold's performance. This was one of the things that spurred them to look in his direction and contact the Jets in the first place. And ultimately, they liked him enough to make him a Panther.

I know some here have a narrative that Darnold was just the best they could do or was insurance just in case they couldn't get someone like Fields (CRA repeatedly assured me of this pre-draft) but obviously that wasn't true. Yet some still seem to think that just because they don't believe he's good, the Panthers can't possibly think that.

Except they do. Passing on Fields cemented it.

Now, are they right about him? That I don't know.

But arguing that the Panthers simply must think less of him because "there's no way they could disagree with me" is not only just plain dumb, but also ignores the facts in favor of an imaginary narrative.

Bottom Line: If anyone wants to argue that they don't think Darnold can be the guy, that's a valid opinion.

Trying to argue that the Panthers don't believe he can be the guy is delusional.

People that do this are pretty arrogant, that's for sure.

 

56 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

Darnold was definitely not our first or second choice. Fitts being in on every deal is why we were talking to the Jets early. (Which we thought a second was too much for him originally) I’m sure he has spoke with half of the teams about potential trade targets. I’m feeling a little optimistic about Darnold, but I’m not delusional in thinking we wanted him first the whole time. 

That's a fair point.  Even myself who is strongly rooting for Sam to succeed knows that he was Plan C (after Stafford, and Watson).    No big deal.  

 

52 minutes ago, CRA said:

actual reports are often just team pr and propaganda though. 

kinda like their draft confidential.  It is super edited to present like a master plan that all worked to perfection.  It leaves out all the other discussions.  Guys they wanted instead of who they got etc.  Routine disagreement.  All the stuff they wouldn't want you to hear.

 

So what are you implying?

That a Panthers fan's point of view on a Messageboard is correct(and True) and EVERYONE ELSE actually closely involved with the Team is wrong and false?

Come on, CRA.... That is a ridiculous take and you know it.  smh.

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by glenwo2

[LinvilleGorge]

Just now, Mr. Scot said:

You didn't actually read it, did you?

If you did, and that's what you came away with, you didn't understand it.

LOL! Maybe I was wrong about the only hard headed part. Yeah man, we offered a multiple pick package including #8 overall for Stafford while Sam Darnold was our plan all along.

That's hilarious.

[glenwo2]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

You didn't actually read it, did you?

If you did, and that's what you came away with, you didn't understand it.

Doesn't look like he did or if he did, he just ignored the parts that defeated his flimsy argument.

Edit : Case in point, his most recent reply to you above.   Now *that* is hilarious. lol

Edited May 28, 2021 by glenwo2

[Mr. Scot]

1 minute ago, LinvilleGorge said:

LOL! Maybe I was wrong about the only hard headed part. Yeah man, we offered a multiple pick package including #8 overall for Stafford while Sam Darnold was our plan all along.

That's hilarious.

Stafford was definitely the first option, but the team started talking to the Jets about Darnold right after that deal fell through.

Had the Jets not wanted to wait, that deal could have gone through way sooner than it did.

So no, not the first option, but also not (as you're trying to characterize) the last resort.

Again, you don't think Donald will succeed. I get it. Everybody gets it.

But arguing that the Panthers only got him because they "panicked" or "felt they couldn't do any better" ignores the facts of the story.

[LinvilleGorge]

4 minutes ago, glenwo2 said:

Doesn't look like he did or if he did, he just ignored the parts that defeated his flimsy argument.

Edit : Case in point, his most recent reply to you above.   Now *that* is hilarious. lol

What's hilarious is bailie on your team to follow a bust of a QB. I get the feeling that you probably went all in on Darnold to the point of being afraid to show your face around Jets fans.

[LinvilleGorge]

1 minute ago, Mr. Scot said:

Stafford was definitely the first option, but the team started talking to the Jets about Darnold right after that deal fell through.

Had the Jets not wanted to wait, that deal could have gone through way sooner than it did.

So no, not the first option, but also not (as you're trying to characterize) the last resort.

Again, you don't think Donald will succeed. I get it. Everybody gets it.

But arguing that the Panthers only got him because they "panicked" or "felt they couldn't do any better" ignores the facts of the story.

I didn't say that we panicked. I only pondered that we might have.

What I know for sure is that the team would spin any love we made as if their plan worked out all along. I mean, that's just what you have to do.

But we definitely made a big offer for Stafford. By all accounts we were going to be all in on Watson talks. We definitely reached out to Miami about #3 before it became obvious the Jets were taking Wilson. At best, Darnold was our 4th option. 

 

 

[Mr. Scot]

1 minute ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I didn't say that we panicked. I only pondered that we might have.

What I know for sure is that the team would spin any love we made as if their plan worked out all along. I mean, that's just what you have to do.

But we definitely made a big offer for Stafford. By all accounts we were going to be all in on Watson talks. We definitely reached out to Miami about #3 before it became obvious the Jets were taking Wilson. At best, Darnold was our 4th option. 

This is how I know you didn't read the article.

[glenwo2]

6 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

What's hilarious is bailie on your team to follow a bust of a QB. I get the feeling that you probably went all in on Darnold to the point of being afraid to show your face around Jets fans.

Is that the best you can do?  

(btw, it's "bailed", not bailie)

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by glenwo2

[LinvilleGorge]

8 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

This is how I know you didn't read the article.

I just didn't take it for the gospel you did. There was waaaaaay too much talk about a pending Watson trade for there to be no smoke. You just cling desperately to sources that confirm your take. Those are "reports". Everything else is "rumors". That's called "confirmation bias". We all have it, you're just completely blind to yours.

Meanwhile, you're in here lockstep with the president and lone member of "The Official International Sam Darnold Fan Club". What should that be telling you?