Re: Last year's defense

[Michael G]

2 hours ago, Mage said:

Panthers allowed the 8th fewest first downs in the NFL and led the league in shortest number of plays per drive allowed.  

The second part of this statement isn't necessarily a good thing. If you take into account that too many times last year it seemed teams had great field position and only needed a few plays to score.

[KSpan]

47 minutes ago, poundaway said:

This stat explains the OP stat.

Expecting a D to stop all scoring, shows a lack of understanding of how football works.

Anyone who came away from watching our games and said we lost because of our D, must have slept through the 2nd and 3rd quarter.

 No one is expecting to stop all scoring, and few would expect a defense to hole a minor lead with no offensive support. However, anyone who came away thinking the defense was anything other than average at best must have only watched the first quarters as well.

[poundaway]

1 hour ago, KSpan said:

 No one is expecting to stop all scoring, and few would expect a defense to hole a minor lead with no offensive support.

Isn't that what we had?  A minor lead (first score) with no offensive support?

[KSpan]

20 minutes ago, poundaway said:

Isn't that what we had?  A minor lead (first score) with no offensive support?

Often enough yes, which is why the stat is what it is but hardly the sole reason the team gave up 24 or more 10 times, 27 or more 8 times. With better offense the defense us still average at best and nowhere near the , which is the whole point. Nothing about it was genuine "#2 defense" and little has changed, so expect more average play this year but with perhaps a few closer scores.

[CamTheMan]

3 hours ago, poundaway said:

This stat explains the OP stat.

Expecting a D to stop all scoring, shows a lack of understanding of how football works.

Anyone who came away from watching our games and said we lost because of our D, must have slept through the 2nd and 3rd quarter.

It’s worthless to argue with them. Their logic has been disproven over and over again and they just keep repeating it. The Scot guy has been repeating that our defense started off games bad even though it’s been proven multiple times that we easily had a top 5 first quarter defense in literally every regard. 
 

As with everything now, people would rather be wrong the rest of their lives instead of putting their ego aside to change their mind once and admit they are wrong.

[KSpan]

4 minutes ago, CamTheMan said:

It’s worthless to argue with them. Their logic has been disproven over and over again and they just keep repeating it. The Scot guy has been repeating that our defense started off games bad even though it’s been proven multiple times that we easily had a top 5 first quarter defense in literally every regard. 
 

As with everything now, people would rather be wrong the rest of their lives instead of putting their ego aside to change their mind once and admit they are wrong.

This isn't complicated - while 2021 was better than 2020, the unit was average at best against actual competition and claims that last year's defense was #2 are nonsense. Carolina's 2013 defense was #2. and that team did not have prolific offense, and 2015 was #6; are you and others really arguing that that group last year was comparable? I sincerely hope not.

With better offensive play and net minor additions to the defensive personnel, reasonable expectation is continued average performance with fewer points scored but expecting legit #2 defense is unrealistic. That's all that's being said.

[poundaway]

7 minutes ago, KSpan said:

This isn't complicated - while 2021 was better than 2020, the unit was average at best against actual competition and claims that last year's defense was #2 are nonsense. Carolina's 2013 defense was #2. and that team did not have prolific offense, and 2015 was #6; are you and others really arguing that that group last year was comparable? I sincerely hope not.

With better offensive play and net minor additions to the defensive personnel, reasonable expectation is continued average performance with fewer points scored but expecting legit #2 defense is unrealistic. That's all that's being said.

We aren't claiming its a #2 defense... so  you are arguing with yourself on that one.  Hope you win.

The OP makes the pathetic attempt to blame our 10 lost leads on the D.  Its a laughable statement "at best" as you like you to say.

Edited July 24, 2022 by poundaway

[CamTheMan]

5 minutes ago, KSpan said:

This isn't complicated - while 2021 was better than 2020, the unit was average at best against actual competition and claims that last year's defense was #2 are nonsense. Carolina's 2013 defense was #2. and that team did not have prolific offense, and 2015 was #6; are you and others really arguing that that group last year was comparable? I sincerely hope not.

With better offensive play and net minor additions to the defensive personnel, reasonable expectation is continued average performance with fewer points scored but expecting legit #2 defense is unrealistic. That's all that's being said.

Nobody has said we are the second best defense in the league. Literally nobody has ever said that. What we are saying is that it’s laughable to try and convince anyone this was an “average at best” defense. They were 15th in points allowed per drive, which is their worst ranking in any stat and can easily be explained by the fact we were DEAD LAST in starting field position. Why are you people ignoring that and the fact our defense faced extreme high volume since our offense was so terrible. This isn’t rocket science.

 

Above average defense + Bottom 3 defense = Good efficiency stats and below average total volume stats

[CamTheMan]

1 minute ago, CamTheMan said:

Bottom 3 defense

Bottom 3 offense*

[KSpan]

7 minutes ago, poundaway said:

We aren't claiming its a #2 defense... so  you are arguing with yourself on that one.  Hope you win.

The OP makes the pathetic attempt to blame our 10 lost leads on the D.  Its a laughable statement "at best" as you like you to say.

 

3 minutes ago, CamTheMan said:

Nobody has said we are the second best defense in the league. Literally nobody has ever said that. What we are saying is that it’s laughable to try and convince anyone this was an “average at best” defense. They were 15th in points allowed per drive, which is their worst ranking in any stat and can easily be explained by the fact we were DEAD LAST in starting field position. Why are you people ignoring that and the fact our defense faced extreme high volume since our offense was so terrible. This isn’t rocket science.

 

Above average defense + Bottom 3 defense = Good efficiency stats and below average total volume stats

Plenty of people have thrown out that '#2 defense' nonsense all offseason as evidence of some major leap that will take place of there is better offense, and it's nonsense. Aside from that the stat still supports that Rhule has been an inept strategist and HC and that hasn't changed, so it's rational to expect more of the same until it's proven otherwise. With better offense the defense will clearly appear as average as it is.

[Mr. Scot]

33 minutes ago, CamTheMan said:

It’s worthless to argue with them. Their logic has been disproven over and over again and they just keep repeating it. The Scot guy has been repeating that our defense started off games bad even though it’s been proven multiple times that we easily had a top 5 first quarter defense in literally every regard. 

As with everything now, people would rather be wrong the rest of their lives instead of putting their ego aside to change their mind once and admit they are wrong.

Ah yes, the old "declare victory and act like you've proven your point when you actually haven't even come close" tactic, a message board favorite

Quick tip: Might help if you learn the difference between "first quarter" and "early on" (they're not synonymous).

[poundaway]

Just now, KSpan said:

 

Plenty of people have thrown out that '#2 defense' nonsense all offseason as evidence of some major leap that will take place of there is better offense, and it's nonsense. Aside from that the stat still supports that Rhule has been an inept strategist and HC and that hasn't changed, so it's rational to expect more of the same until it's proven otherwise. With better offense the defense will clearly appear as average as it is.

Yes commentators and huddlers cite the #2 defense because we were 2nd in yards allowed, a commonly used stat to eval a D.  It apparently bothers you, so much that you argue it with people who don't even mention the stat.  Go argue it with them. 

This thread is discussing if the 10 lost leads can be blamed on the D and I call bullshlt.

 

 

[Mr. Scot]

13 minutes ago, KSpan said:

Plenty of people have thrown out that '#2 defense' nonsense all offseason as evidence of some major leap that will take place of there is better offense, and it's nonsense. Aside from that the stat still supports that Rhule has been an inept strategist and HC and that hasn't changed, so it's rational to expect more of the same until it's proven otherwise. With better offense the defense will clearly appear as average as it is.

Pretty much.

Even the people who haven't thrown that out recently (likely because it actually has been shown to be ridiculous) still like to talk as if the defense last season was something special.

"Average at best" is a pretty good description, though I'm not even sure I'd give them that much credit.

People really need to learn to stop depending so much on stats and rankings. They don't mean jack.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Mr. Scot

[Jackie Lee]

21 minutes ago, CamTheMan said:

Nobody has said we are the second best defense in the league. Literally nobody has ever said that. What we are saying is that it’s laughable to try and convince anyone this was an “average at best” defense. They were 15th in points allowed per drive, which is their worst ranking in any stat and can easily be explained by the fact we were DEAD LAST in starting field position. Why are you people ignoring that and the fact our defense faced extreme high volume since our offense was so terrible. This isn’t rocket science.

 

Above average defense + Bottom 3 defense = Good efficiency stats and below average total volume stats